The Illuminati Formula

            
Used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Controlled Slave

          
by Cisco Wheeler and Fritz Springmeier

Here is a remarkable and powerful book. Save it. Copy it., Give it to friends and therapists for compassionate work. You now have in your hands the very tools that can deprogram the dream. Once you know this, and you absorb its implications, you can no longer be blind folded. By reading this, you may be helping millions of monarch slaves . These techniques only work by our ignorance of knowing them. Herein, let us apply the Heart to the mind, and awaken a Middle Way, by infiltrating another piece of the cancer of sleep, as All Is God in Action.

           
Dedication

This book is dedicated to the two million Americans and counting who have been programmed with Monarch-type trauma-based mind control. This book is written to destroy trauma-based mind control before it destroys the human race. It’s time for this horrendous secret to end.

Blood, sweat and tears are associated with this book. The blood of the innocent victims of this mind-control cries out in a single unison, along with the pungent sweat of those who have tried to minister help to the shattered humanity left by the sadistic programmers, and the pools of tears shed as this book was written, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on earth?"

WARNING, READ THIS FIRST BEFORE READING THE BOOK. IF THERE IS ANY CHANCE you the reader have had mind-control done to you, you must consider the following book to be DANGEROUS. If you are consulting a therapist for DID (also known as MPD), it is recommended that you consult your therapist before reading this book. The complications that could result for those under mind control learning the truth--could be fatal. The co-authors take no responsibility for those who read or misuse this information.

The reader’s mind is like a garden. It may not be time to plant the truth in your mind. Perhaps you need some weeding or ground preparation, before the garden of your mind is ready. Perhaps the weather is too stormy to plant the truth.

The blessings that flow from planting the information of this book in your mind, will require the presence of living waters of love. If you do not have love in your heart, this book is not for you. The information contained in this book is the biggest news-story of the 20th century, and still the biggest secret. It will challenge you, shock you, horrify you and hopefully motivate you to redouble your efforts to humble yourself and seek strength from God.

The programming procedures which are described in this book are based on research and consultation with deprogrammers, ex-programmers, therapists, counselors and pertinent literature. To the best of our knowledge the statements made in this book are factual, although they may not reflect the latest or currently accepted methodology among each and every faction of the New World Order which carries out Monarch-type programming. This book tends to devote more emphasis to Illuminati programming, which is the highest level of programming.

For individual application in understanding a survivor of Monarch programming, therapists are admonished to use this material with consideration for the Monarch victim’s personal case and situation.

The authors disclaim any responsibility for therapeutic work based upon this material.

Fritz Springmeier and Cisco Wheeler have co-authored They Know Not What They Do, An Illustrated Guidebook To Monarch Mind Control. Both Fritz and Cisco bring years of experience in dealing with Monarch programming to bear on the writing of this book. Fritz has researched the Illuminati, while he has worked with victims of its programming. He has authored The Top 13 Illuminati Families, and several other books.

       
Introduction by Fritz

There are many dangers to the human race, some real and some imagined. I believe that the trauma-based mind control which this book exposes is the greatest danger to the human race. It gives evil men the power to carry out any evil deed totally undetected. By the time the astute reader finishes this book, they will be as familiar with how to carry out trauma-based mind-control as some of the programmers. Ancient and more recent secrets will no longer be secrets.

Over the years, I have spent thousands of hours studying the Illuminati, the Intelligence agencies of the world, and the occult world in general. The centerpiece of these organizations is the trauma-based mind control that they carry out. Without the ability to carry out this sophisticated type of mind-control using MPD, drugs, hypnosis and electronics and other control methodologies, these organizations would fail to keep their dark evil deeds secret.

When one of the mind-control programmers of the Church of Scientology, who has left Scientology, was asked about MPD, he said, "It’s the name of the game of mind control." Research into this subject will never be complete. This book has tried to give a comprehensive view of how the programming is done.

The basic techniques were developed in German, Scottish, Italian, and English Illuminati families and have been done for centuries. Some report that some of the techniques go back to ancient Egypt and ancient Babylon to the ancient mystery religions. The Nazis are known to have studied ancient Egyptian texts in their mind control research. The records and secrets of the generational Illuminati bloodlines are very-well guarded secrets.

Even when I’ve learned about the location of secret depositories of some of the Illuminati’s secrets in Europe, America, and Asia, their records and secrets are too well-guarded to be examined. The intelligence agencies, such as MI-6 began investigating these mind-control techniques early this century, but their records have been routinely destroyed and tampered with. There are some survivors and professionals who know that the British used programmed trauma-based MPD (DID) agents in W.W. I.

In Jan., 1987, Richard Kluft submitted an article to the American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis about 8 MPD patients who were between 60 and 72 years of age. Traugott Konstantin Oesterreich (1880-1949), who was professor of philosophy at Tubingen University, Germany studied MPD and demonic possession and wrote a classic study of it in 1921 entitled Possession Demonical & Other, which was translated into English in 1930. His classic work on this subject provides documented cases which reveal that the basic trauma-based mind-control was going on in Germany, France & Belgium long before the 20th century. Although he is unable to put together all the pieces and the clues for what they are, the reader of this book might enjoy reading the 1930 English translation of his classic work after they finish this book.

Oesterreich’s research in early 1900s was the type of research that the Nazi mind-control programmers were very aware of. In 1921, the Germans such as Oesterreich would describe personality switches, by the term "somnambuliform [hypnotic states] possession" or "demonical somnambulism" or what might be called "Besessenheit von Hypnotismus und bõsen Geistern."

The ability to study both the spiritual & psychological aspects of mind-control phenomena, is often lacking today. There are exceptions such as Dr. Loreda Fox’s book The Spiritual Dimensions of MPD. In the 1920s, the Germans also were aware that the human mind has a variety of ego-psycho-physiological states rather than one unified mind, which they termed "Sub jecklose Psychologie" or the psychology of having correlated psychological states rather than the concept of a single ego. The Germans and Italians under the Nazi and Fascist governments began to do serious scientific research into trauma-based mind control.

Under the auspices of the Kaiser Wilhelm Medical Institute in Berlin, Joseph Mengele conducted mind-control research on thousands of twins, and thousands of other hapless victims. Himmler supervised genetic research. The Nazi research records were confiscated by the Allies and are still classified.

A trip can be made from downtown Washington D.C. on a gray-government van which serves as a shuttle to the Suitland Annex where the government’s secrets are buried including research papers captured from the Nazi Mind-Control research.

Most of Mengele’s concentration camp research is still classified. Much of it dealt with mind control. A researcher can visit the top floor, but underground below the top floor are the real secrets. The real secrets are lying in millions of sheets of classified documents hidden behind blast proof doors. There they have vault after vault, and row after row of top-secret files that only a few privileged persons with security clearances above COSMIC--such as with a "C3" or "MJ" security clearance can visit. Everyone with these high security clearances which I have identified is connected to the Illuminati. Each underground area at Suitland Annex has its own subset of secret access words, known only to the initiated.

Most of the OSS records have been destroyed, a few have been left, the important ones have been misfiled or remade. (This is according to a reliable British intelligent agent.) Also according to reliable inside sources the CIA is working night and day to remake old records, to expunge all the real dirty secrets from their records.

The basement of CIA HQ is known as "the Pit," In the Pit documents are being shredded and burned on a round the clock basis. The large remains of these secrets are sold for landfill. The Illuminati have developed secrecy to a fine art. They train their people in the art of secrecy from the time they are born. Most everything they do, is done orally. They are trained not to write rituals and other things down. There is very little paper trail left by the Illuminati.

The creation of slaves with photographic memories facilitates this secrecy. But this book is not about how they have managed to keep their trauma-based Monarch Mind-Control a secret. They have managed only to keep it a secret to the general public. They have not been able to completely cover-up the millions of wasted lives that their programming has ruined.

For many years, they were able to shut-up and quietly discard their programmed multiples by labeling them Paranoid Schizophrenics. But therapists are now correctly identifying these people as programmed multiples and are not only diagnosing them better but giving them better treatment.

After Candy Jones’s husband deprogrammed her enough that she could participate in writing a book exposing some of what had been done to her, the secret was out. (See The Control of Candy Jones Hypnotism and the CIA by Donald Bain.) Ever since then, the intelligence agencies and the Illuminati have been carrying out damage control. Their biggest damage control campaign has enlisted the power of Hollywood and the controlled Media. This campaign is known as the False Memory Syndrome campaign, or as those of us who know the facts like to call it ""the false memory spin-drome."

The headquarters of the False Memory Spin-drom Foundation is located at 3401 Market St., Suite 130, Philadelphia, PA 19104. Some of the original founders were doctors of the University of Pennsylvania. The inside story about these early FMS doctors of the University of Pennsylvania is that they practiced Satanic Rituals during their work days. What is unusual about this--is that generally satanic rituals are performed at night, but these doctors did their coven work during the day. I know about these men. Now you can see why these men started the FMS! They started it to cover their own sins, because many of them were abusers themselves. In other words many of the EMS people are abusers of trauma-based mind-controlled slaves, or the victims of abuse who are in denial about their own abuse from trauma-based mind-control. Martin T. Orn (the person credited with founding the FMS) had ties to the CIA.

Two members of the EMS advisory board, Ralph Underwager, Ph.D. and theologian, along with Hollida Wakefield, M.A. let the cat out of the bag when they publicly supported pedophilia (that is adults having sex with children). Their support of pedophilia came in an interview with a Dutch magazine Paidika, The Journal of Pedophilia (Winter, 1993).

Although the False Memory Syndrome Foundation gets upset at any mention that there might be a conspiracy by the perpetrators of mind-control, because conspiracies supposedly don’t and can’t happen, they want us to believe that all therapists are conspiring together to implant false memories of abuse into their clients, which could not be further from the truth.

Monarch slaves typically run into a great deal of denial by their therapists that anything like this could be happening. The bottom line is that Multiple Personality Disorder (now referred to as Dissociative Identity Disorder) is a recognized bona fide diagnosis. False Memory Syndrome is not a recognized medical or psychological diagnosis and does not appear in the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual III-R nor the recently released DSM-IV.

Those who followed Fritz’s writings have learned about the close working relationship between the Mondavi’s and the Rothschild's (see his article about the Mondavi/Rothschild Napa Valley winery). Guess who got the court precedence which gives the EMS some legal ground to attack therapists? The precedence was supposedly a wife who went to a doctor who told her she had syphilis. The wife assumes she got it from her husband and divorces him. Then she learns she doesn’t have syphilis. The husband then sues the doctor. Upon this bizarre case rests the legal precedence for a third party to sue a person who gives advice, such as family members suing a therapist.

Upon this weak precedence, an abusive father who worked for Monday in a winery in California successfully destroyed a legitimate therapist who was trying to save his daughter who was a programmed Monarch victim. Supposedly the therapist had implanted false memories of rape in his daughter, when the record shows that the daughter’s mother told the therapist the girl had been raped by the father.

When a valid case of SRA and repressed memories went to trial in Washington state involving a police officer whose family was MPD, Dr. Richard Ofshe of the False Memory Spindrom showed up to cause mischief. And mischief he did work. The case involved the children of a ""Christian"" police officer named Ingram who had satanically ritually abused his family for years. The daughter won in court, but Ofshe of the EMS was not above writing a book full of lies and distortions about the case. Lynn Crook, who was the abused daughter in the case wrote up a paper exposing what EMS person Richard Ofshe did to her, The controlled media is giving full license and great coverage to the EMS people.

Rather than fighting the government for scraps of declassified documents which have had their secrets marked out, and which may even be fake documents manufactured by the CIA, I have decided that there is a much better approach to expose the Monarch Mind Control to the world. If a person could never go to Nepal, he can see pictures of it and believe it exists. If a person can not get into the top secret records of the CIA and Office of Naval Intelligence and MI6, they can be given the exact RECIPE for creating a Monarch slave.

I believe that by giving the step by step recipe, people will see that A. all the ingredients are available, B. it is possible to combine the ingredients, C. all it takes is the motive to do it, and that motive is self-evident. We’ll even provide some of the names and places as we go along.

This book will provide the step-by-step recipe for making a Monarch Mind-Controlled slave, It is a trauma-based mind control which programs multiple personalities using every known technique of mind-control. Every type of mind-control technique has been combined into a group package which makes the total package almost impossible to break. It is this ability to synthesize all these methods into a group package which is so powerful.

Edward Hunter, author of Brainwashing In Red China, testified in 1958 before a U.S. Congressional House Committee on Un-American Activities:

"Since man began, he has tried to influence other men or women to his way of thinking. There have always been these forms of pressure to change attitudes. We discovered in the past thirty years, a technique to influence, by clinical, hospital procedures, the thinking processes of human beings. Brainwashing is formed out of a set of different elements ... hunger, fatigue, tenseness, threats, violence, and in more intense cases...drugs and hypnotism. No one of these elements alone can be regarded as brain washing, any more than an apple can be called apple pie. Other ingredients have to be added, and a cooking process gone through. So it is with brainwashing..."

Hunter said brainwashing was a Red Chinese threat. He said that the Chinese were the ones using these tactics. In reality, this mind control was being done in the U.S. and Hunter was a pawn to help justify the criminal activities of the programmers should they ever be found out behind their cover of "National security."

The handlers of mind-controlled slaves carry around a black or grey 3 ring notebook or a lap top computer with the access codes and triggers. Some of the programmers and handlers have this all memorized. The deepest parts, core/gems/executive committee, false trinity etc. are charted in esoteric language such as Enochian, Hebrew (which is considered magical), and Druid symbols.

I have never gotten the opportunity to look at one of these, although a number of the slaves who I’ve talked with have while they were being programmed. These notebooks have color-coded graphs showing the arrangement of alters, the structure of the system, the training of the alters, the history of the alters and other details. All the primary tortures carried out on a slave are coded using dates/no.s so that the memories can be pulled up by the programmers.

There is a standard set of hand signals, gestures, and codes that allow a handler to work with someone else’s slave, but the accepted code among the handlers is to leave another man’s slave alone. As one leading psychiatrist put it, "Different ideologies use the same methodologies of mind control."

The Illuminati have secretly put in base programming that allows them ultimate control over many of the other groups’ slaves. This will be described within this book.

For both the ease of reading and the ease of writing, I have dispensed with most footnotes. To provide my sources would double the size of the book, and many of them are confidential. (In the past, when I have attempted crediting information, some people have gotten bruised feelings for having been passed over or for being named. When information comes in from several sources, it becomes difficult to pass out credit.) I have made conservative judgment calls about what material I could use.

Most of this information has been verified by several reliable sources. Confidential eyewitnesses are often the only source, when there is such a powerful conspiracy to keep this vast NWO mind control secret. Paper trails were not left or are not available. Programmed slaves who have worked for the military as mind-controlled slaves have witnessed their files expunged and sanitized.

The New World Order in 1981 made training films for their novice programmers. Monarch slave Cathy O’Brien was used to make both the film "How to Divide a Personality" and "How To Create a Sex Slave." Two Huntsville porn photographers were used to help NASA and the NWO create these training films. Undoubtedly, other porn training films exist too. In others words, there is film evidence of the Monarch Total Mind-control but these porn films are kept in very secure sites.

During the last few years, I have visited with ex-programmers, I have visited with hundreds of victims of the Monarch type programming. I have gone to programming sites, I have visited with therapists who work with the victims of this mind-control, and I have met several of the programmers of the CIA/Illuminati face to face in the adventures of trying to save people from their programming.

I hope that God gives me the strength and the opportunity to get the information I have learned out to the world in general. When this information gets out, hopefully it will help lift some of the secrecy of the Monarch Programming.

The Monarch Programming is a foundation rock of the New World Order that when pulled up, will reveal the most evil two-legged bugs and slimy critters. When their rock is lifted, they will have to scurry to hide. Because the authors know what the programmers do, they must honestly record several areas of programming that will be controversial. The programmers are very much into demonology. Before therapists close their minds to this subject, the authors would like to point out, that they personally know of cases where Monarch slaves whose Christian personalities & other alters didn’t believe in demonology were talked into participating in real deliverance, and the slaves discovered much to their surprise that work they had unsuccessfully tried to do for years with their therapist was accomplished in a day or two.

Some prestigious researchers have decided the subconscious doesn’t exist because they can’t find it--its mysterious. To the man in the street the concept "subconscious" is as mysterious as the concept "demon".

Both have been the objects of intense research by U.S./Brit./Ger. Intelligence groups. In fact, many of the concepts in this book have been purposely obscured by the Illuminati’s control over the media and universities. These obscured concepts include M.P.D. (DID), recovered memories, hypnosis, demonic possession, aliens, mind-control, the subconscious, a conspiracy to bring in a NWO, truth, etc. The smokescreens of controversy will continue; but those who love the truth, if they seek it, will realize the importance of this book.

It’s on public record that MK ULTRA, the mind control research which CIA director Admiral Stansfield Turner admitted to in 1977 spent millions of dollars studying Voodoo, witchcraft, and psychics. On August 3, 1977, at a Senate hearing the then CIA director Admiral Stansfield Turner disclosed that the CIA had been conducting mind control on countless numbers of unsuspecting victims for years, without their knowledge or consent. These CIA mind-control operations were carried out with the participation of a least 185 scientists and at least 80 American institutions, including prisons, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, and 44 medical colleges & universities. Many of America’s most prestigious institutes of medical research, had cooperated with the CIA. as well as numerous big name corporations.

Casey admitted that day that the CIA did mind-control consisting of drugs, hypnosis & electro-shock. A few of the victims of the Monarch Project were even awarded financial compensation for their misery.

But what was admitted was admitted in the spirit of covering up the extent of the full truth. The compensation was actually hush money, because victims were given "gag orders" by judges not to talk about what had happened to them.

FOR CHRISTIAN DEPROGRAMMERS It’s been a disaster for Monarch victims that so many ministers have ignored those words of their Scripture, "For we are not ignorant of the devil’s devices." 2 COR 2:11

This book is a must for those ministers who seriously believe "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2 COR 7:1. In 2 TIM 2: 19-21, believers who "nameth the name of Christ" are asked to purge themselves of their uncleanliness ( unclean spirits).

There are many top notch Christians in the churches today who are under mind-control, incl. many of the Christian leadership. Ignorance is not godliness. One of the character traits of God is that He is all-knowing. WHO says it is godly to be ignorant? The prophet Daniel said God "reveals the deep and secret things." (Dan. 2:22a) Jesus’ advice to his disciples was in effect to "Be wise as serpents, and gentle as a lamb". This advice certainly applies in helping the victims of trauma-based mind-control. Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians (1 Thes 5:14) says that in effect that different people need different counseling, but they all need to be treated with patience.

The first step in suggesting a cure is to find out what happened. That is what this book is about. This book is about how the Occult Network creates the problem that therapists and a few ministers try to deal with. But the keys to open doors to healthy solutions for the victims of trauma-based total mind control will reveal themselves in this book for the reader as this book reveals the nitty-gritty of how the total mind-control happens.

Satanic ritual abuse has a history that is almost as old as history itself. Good King Hezekiah was a victim as a child of SRA. (2 Chr. 29) who got free. Moses confronted the satanic magic of Pharaoh's magicians who could create live snakes from sticks. The Apostle Paul had to deal with Simon Magus, a leader of what is now known as Satanism. Solomon, one of the greatest men of faith, backslide and became one of the greatest Satanists of all history. We have "no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (as per EPH 5:11).

While we have no fellowship with evil, the mind-control programmers are counting on us being so ignorant of their devices that they can hide their control devices behind perversion & filth that many people shy away from. We must be strong enough to face evil and not shy away from it.

The victims of mind-control must look evil in the face & not look away to gain their freedom. We, who want to help them, must be courageous & strong enough to do this too.

This book is written for that divine goal "till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Eph. 4:13 If the body of Christ is to attain fullness, we need this book to weed out the hidden terrible cancer that is consuming the body from within.

This book is written for ministers, secular and Christian therapists, and truth lovers of all kinds. If you love the truth this book is for you. If you see something good in the human race so that our species should be preserved as well as the spotted owl and the sand flea, then this book is for you. IF YOU LOVE THE TRUTH, this BOOK is for YOU.

Glossary of How Basic Terms are Used In This Book For those readers who are not familiar with these basic terms let us introduce you to the definitions under which this book uses them.

Alter-Our usage is trying to follow the programmers usage of this word. A dissociated part of the mind which has a separate identity and is given cue codes by the mind-control programmers to trigger that dissociated part of the mind to come to the front of the mind. The alter’s identity may be a gem, rock, a tape recorder, a poodle, a white kitten, a dove, a horse, or even think of itself as a person or a demon. It all depends on its programming. An alter is different from an alter fragment in that the alter fragment is a dissociated part of the mind which serves only a single purpose.

The programmers will give an alter a history, and insure that shadow alters will provide a full range of accessible emotions. Sometimes the distinctions between alters and alter fragments is vague, but examples from the two ends of the spectrum are easy to tell apart. We use the word alter in this book to conform to what the programmers’ charts are encoding as alters. A typical main Mengele-created grid would be a grid of 13 x 13 principal A-coded alters, which is 169 principle alter personalities.

In Illuminati systems, ceremonial "alters will consist of 3 alters placed on a spinning pedestal together into triad goddesses or gods. That means that an A-coded alter on some levels is actually 3 alters spinning together, which must be locked in place to communicate with, and then rotated to communicate to the other two.

Beta--This is the second Greek letter, and it represents the sexual models and sexual alters that the Programmers are creating. The primitive part of the brain is involved in this type of programming. An early sexual abuse event will be used to anchor this programming. These sexual slaves will develop sexual abilities that are far beyond what the public is aware is even possible. They also receive the worst kind of abuse far beyond what most people’s imagination can picture. Beta alters generally see themselves as cats.

Councils (llluminati)--The Illuminati has frequent meetings. Some of these meetings are organized to appear "acephalous" and "accidental" in their meetings, when in reality they are structured and planned. One group, MJ-12 has gone by the following names: the Group, the Special Study Group, the Wise Men, the Operations Coordinating Board (OCB), 5412 Committee, 303 Committee, 40 Committee, PI-40 Committee, and Policy Planning Group (PCG). Some of the formal policy and ritual groups have names that all Illuminati members who have gotten high enough to learn, will recognize:

The Council of 3, Council of 5, Council of 7, Council of 9, The Grand Druid Council, The Committee of 300, and the Committee of 500 (known as Fortune 500). Many of the meetings are conclaves without formal names. The Grand Druid Council is not something fictional, but an actual body of people who formally meet and whose membership, we have been trying to keep track of. The groups which make decisions to control this planet are networked together. Each decision has its own origin and route that it takes.

Delta--This is a Greek letter shaped like a triangle which symbolizes change in calculus. It has become a favorite word to use in naming things for the occult elite. Delta teams are 4 person assassination teams which usually are secret teams. Delta Forces is an elite unit that operates under the Joint chiefs of staff that is made up of highly trained total mind-controlled slaves. Delta models are slaves whose sole purpose is assassination. Delta alters are alters within an Illuminati alter system which are programmed to be assassins. These alters are often some of the deepest in a system and in a Genie bottle or with Umbrella programming.

Deliverance ministry-(This book is about HOW the mind-control is done, it is not a textbook on solutions.) The use of the term deliverance ministry in this book can-notates any person(s) who via faith in God is able to pray for divine help in a fashion that a victim is helped from demonic activity. A deliverance ministry is a natural outgrowth of a life in harmony and fellowship with God. However, this is not to be confused with Exorcism of the traditional Catholic or witchcraft nature in which certain spells and incantations are used in a prescribed method. "Deliverance" can-notates divinely inspired faith, exorcism involves ritual. A deliverance ministry might perhaps teach a person about forgiveness, or how they can renounce an oath, or how to apply Jesus Christ’s atoning blood to their life. In this fashion, the person finds deliverance through biblical spiritual principles rather than the efficacy of some ritual or hocus pocus spell. This book is in no way meant as a blanket endorsement of every spiritual warfare tactic. If anything, this book suggests that ministers learn more about mind-control, as well as grow stronger in their walk with God.

        Illuminati

The Illuminati are 13 elite bloodlines which have maneuvered themselves into control over this planet. They lead double lives, one for society and a hidden one which is based on a gnostic luciferian philosophy which consists of lots of blood rituals.

Monarch Programming--This was a specific Project carried out by secret elements of the U.S. government and intelligence groups. There were, according to someone a few years ago who had access to the computer(s) which contains all the names of active monitored human slaves, 40,000 actively monitored Monarch slaves. However, this book uses the term generically to include all victims who have suffered this type of trauma-based mind-control. In the same way, that a brand name like "Hyster" is used to describe all lifts--when we use the term we use it in its broadest sense. This is the only way it can be used and technically correct, because as of this date, the authors have not seen who is on the active Monarch Program list of slaves.

          System

This term is used in several ways. It is frequently used to refer to a victim of total mind control because the victim consists of alters, programming, implant(s), internal computers, and numerous dissociative states which function together as a system. The word is also used in this book to refer to the body’s functional physiological units, such as the respiratory system. The word is also infrequently used to denote the established social-economic-political system controlling the world, also known insiders as the Network. Other standard meaning may also occasionally be used for the word.

           Multiple Personality/Multiple personalities or MPD

Dissociative Identity Disorder or DID is the situation where different dissociative parts of a single brain view themselves as separate persons. The DSM-IIIR definition of MPD is the guideline for determining MPD for this book.

New World Order-- The New World Order is the global design for a One-World-Government One-World-Dictator and its constituents. Insiders call themselves the "network" and "the neighborhood".

Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA)--This is used to represent all categories of ritual abuse which would be inspired by the desire to rob, kill, or destroy something worthwhile in a person, especially their freedom of thought. Many groups carrying out SRA do not mention Satan by that name. They may make Pacts to Baphomet, and call upon Rex Mundi, or Belair, or Lucifer, or the Father of Light, God, or Kali or even "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ". SRA is not a value judgment by the authors against some group, the victims themselves on some level know that he or she is being abused.

Switching--This is when one part (fragment) of the mind takes over from another, or in simple terms, this is when one alter personality (or alter fragment) takes the body from the alter which is holding the body. Switching can occur via the Programmers’ codes for calling up alters, or by external or internal stimuli that trigger an alter to come out. Switching will usually cause at least a flicker of the eyes, and for outside observers, who know the different personalities, they will observe another personality take the body.

cisco wheeler interview

Fritz Springmeier interview 

Illuminati Formula...Page II:

Go to Chapter 1

Chapter 2

Chapter 3

Chapter 4

Chapter 5

Chapter 6

Chapter 7

Chapter 8

Chapter 9

Chapter 10

Chapter 11

Illuminati Formula... Page III:

Chapter 12

Appendix

        Cisco Wheeler Interview

 

Here is something to prepare for the important files coming soon...



CKLN 88.1 FM Ryerson Polytechnical University Toronto, Ontario

Producer/Interviewer Wayne Morris:
Good morning, and welcome to The International Connection. We are in week #40 in our radio series on mind control, and today we begin an interview with Cisco Wheeler, co-author of "The Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Mind Controlled Slave" and other books about trauma-based conditioning. Cisco is a mind control victim of one of the Illuminati families. She is a descendant of Ulysses S. Grant and has managed to gain a certain amount of freedom from her family's control. She is currently working with Fritz Springmeier to help other victims of mind control heal. Cisco rarely does interviews, so we are very fortunate to be able to bring you this interview with Cisco Wheeler.

I would like to start off by asking you what your background is and how you first became involved in trauma-based conditioning mind control.

Cisco Wheeler:
I was first involved as an infant. My father came from a trans-generational satanic family. My life was planned according to a particular structure, from the beginning, as my father was a programmer for the Illuminati and the U.S. government.

Wayne Morris:
What political/military connections did your family have that you are aware of?

Cisco Wheeler:
We had a very strong political background. My father had political connections; my Great Uncle was General Earl Grant Wheeler, he was a direct descendant of Ulysses Grant. General Earl Wheeler was the head of the American military in the Vietnam War. He was the Joint Chief of Staff so we had a very strong political background. My father was also a Grand Master within the Illuminati. He worked on the west coast during the Vietnam War with his uncle who headed the military, to run drugs into this country to create a drug culture. The purpose of that was to destroy the structure within the family unit. The drug culture was the real purpose behind the Vietnam War. My father was also with the USO shows in the military as he was a musician; he was also involved with the CIA; and he was a 33rd degree Mason. Because of his being a Grand Master within the Illuminati, he was very strongly connected to America's political structure. Because of the generational ties within the Illuminati, from the planned time of my conception, I entered into a world that was well structured, and well planned. And as a structured slave within the Illuminati, I too became connected to America's political structure. As a small child I was groomed to sexually service the so-called elite within this political structure.

Wayne Morris:
Are you talking about people in the White House?

Cisco Wheeler:
Yes. President Eisenhower is the first president that I remember. He befriended me as a small child. I would sit on his lap, sing to him, there were sexual gestures back and forth. I was being trained. I entertained governors, mayors, ministers. I was trained in sexual activity there, and I was part of the Illuminati function within the British Royal Family during elite meetings.

Wayne Morris:
How young do you remember when you started being subjected to trauma conditioning ... from birth?

Cisco Wheeler:
I was traumatized in the womb.

Wayne Morris:
How did you first realize that your family was connected with the Illuminati?

Cisco Wheeler:
If you understand multiplicity, you understand there are many layers in the system. Because there are many layers, parts of ourselves knew, and had many memories of certain things happening in our life, but the front part of our system that faced the outside world, they had no recall or memory at all that associated them to Illuminati programming or trauma based mind control. So if I speak for the front part of our mind, they knew nothing was wrong at all, outside of knowing they had a very abusive childhood. They didn't really know anything was wrong until my father died. When he died, that freed our mind to be able to retrieve memory, and at that point, they understood something was wrong. They started hearing voices and having flashbacks and having information that was retrieved, that they knew they didn't have a "history" of and they couldn't figure out what happened.
Where did this come from? This isn't the way I think. Why would I be thinking about sexual issues when I have no recall of ever being sexually abused or why do I remember that I was in a certain place but yet I don't remember ... it's all second hand. Do you understand what I am saying? So, it wasn't until after my father died that they started breaking down the hypnotic walls within the mind that protected me from knowing what happened. Over a period of time, because of memory retrieval and flashbacks, and the trauma it was causing, they became extremely suicidal and they didn't believe in suicide, they sought help. They went into a hospital for nine weeks and started working with a therapist, and after a time period they realized it wasn't normal to want to die when your father died, and we found out there was a real deep problem.

Wayne Morris:
Did these initial therapists that you worked with have knowledge of mind control or trauma based conditioning techniques at the time?

Cisco Wheeler:
Very vaguely. We were one of the first multiples diagnosed in this area and we basically worked with our therapist and she learned. She made a commitment to us, and what she didn't know, she found out.

Wayne Morris:
Your father was your main handler and programmer, and how old were you when he died?

Cisco Wheeler:
My father was my handler and programmer, and I was forty years old when he died.

Wayne Morris:
How did you manage to break free of your family's control of your life at that time? Did other people step in ...

Cisco Wheeler:
When the Master dies, generally the slave also dies, but because of our determination to fight the programming and to get to the bottom of what was happening within our mind, we were able to fight the suicide programming. >From there we started a journey into understanding that we were a structured multiple which we didn't even know what that was ... that we had a long road ahead of us, a hard road to travel.

Wayne Morris:
Did you have to travel that alone or did other people help you?

Cisco Wheeler:
No. I had a very strong support team. Several people in my support team were also victims of mind control.

Wayne Morris:
The people that weren't, they had an understanding of the mind control techniques?

Cisco Wheeler:
No. We started this journey basically learning to understand ourselves, listening to ourselves, confronting each other within the system with this is what is happening with you, putting our notes together and realizing 'hey we are getting our memories separately, we are feeling the same way, reacting the same way', taking one step at a time because thirteen years ago, nobody really knew anything about MPD.

Wayne Morris:
Did your father also victimize other people?

Cisco Wheeler:
Most definitely. He was a master programmer.

Wayne Morris:
Did you have brothers and sisters that were affected as well?

Cisco Wheeler:
Not to the degree that I was. I was the firstborn.

Wayne Morris:
Is it because you were the firstborn that you were chosen for this kind of victimization or were there other reasons?

Cisco Wheeler:
In part. In the late forties the Illuminati wanted to infiltrate the churches because they understood the power of God within the structure of the church, and they had to find a way to infiltrate the church to break down that spiritual strength within the church, the power of the holy spirit that works within the church. They had to find a way to infiltrate that, and they wanted to bring the world into the churches so that the churches wouldn't be so strong spiritually. That was part of my father's job. In order to do that my father married my mother who was not Illuminati, nor was she ritual, but she did have a very strong religious background. She was that perfect example for the world, that perfect wife for the church, to set examples for other young women in the church. When my father married her, that was his way to infiltrate the church, through my mother.

Wayne Morris:
Throughout your father's life, how did he go about infiltrating during this process?

Cisco Wheeler:
By becoming part of the church, by being a minister, by being ordained, by getting into the youth groups, becoming very friendly with the Elders and the Board of Directors within the congregation itself. This was the Pentecostal churches.

Wayne Morris:
You mentioned your father's role in drug trafficking within the Vietnam War. Could you expand on that?

Cisco Wheeler:
When the Vietnam soldiers were killed and they brought their bodies back, drugs were hidden in the cavities in their bodies. My father's responsibility was to get that from the mortician and it would be a controlled substance at that point, and he was the handler of that controlled substance. He wasn't active in Vietnam. He was just the extended hand that was used within our government to make sure the drugs met their destination.

Wayne Morris:
Once the drugs came over into North America, what were your father's connections in terms of the distribution at that point?

Cisco Wheeler:
I do not know. I was not allowed to know that. I didn't see it. I was too young at that time ... well, I wasn't that young, but I was too young to be a part of that.

Wayne Morris:
Do you consider yourself completely free now of the influence from the Illuminati and your former perpetrators?

Cisco Wheeler:
No I do not consider myself completely free from the cult influence. We are continually harassed by external threats. We get a lot of phone calls, we get bullets in our windows, we get run off the road, we get letters, we get people that walk up to us in the grocery store and they threaten us. They let us know in their little way that they know where I am, what I am doing, and what I am up to, and that it's not over until they say it's over. They are calling the shots.

Wayne Morris:
Have they been able to access parts of you that you have not dealt with in terms of healing?

Cisco Wheeler:
In the past they have; at the present time, no. I am very careful on where I am and what I am doing. I am not careless with my time or my energy, and I don't set myself up so that they can access me. I have other people answer my phone. I have other people read my letters. I have other people that walk before to make sure everything is okay before I walk into anything that I can't handle.

Wayne Morris:
What effects has the trauma conditioning that you have undergone throughout your life do you have to deal with currently?

Cisco Wheeler:
I continue to suffer with the trauma based mind control in every aspect of my life. I have to deal with the fact that my father had a beautiful little girl and he didn't want her love as that beautiful little girl that was born to him. I have to deal with the fact that he wanted a little girl but he wanted her to be shattered into a million pieces so he could structure every aspect of my life. And then I have to ask myself what did it take to splinter this 18 month old child into a million pieces? And you deal with questions like that. It is hard for the mind to comprehend what has been done to you because the mind always wants to protect itself to some degree so you take little 'bites' of it. But the mind is always processing material. Then I have to deal with the fact that they planned this - that's what structured is. Structured MPD/DID was planned from the time of my conception and I am afraid that kind of hurts my feelings when I think about it.

Wayne Morris:
They had a definite structure in terms of knowing what they were doing when they were traumatizing you, and what the effects that would bring about ...

Cisco Wheeler:
Exactly. They knew from A to Z what they wanted to do with my life and how they wanted to structure, what they wanted me to be, and what they wanted me to become. That is slavery. I had to deal with the body, soul and spirit because all parts of myself have been raped. I continually have to deal with memories; with spirit issues; issues within me - in my programming; how they dehumanized me; how they shamed me; how they traumatized me to the point that I didn't even know who I was, what I was, where I was going. I didn't even know I was a little girl at some points in my traumatization. They made sure they dehumanized me to such a point I became a kitten within myself. To be a little girl was to be tortured, to be punished, unacceptable. I have to deal with the spiritual issues because I was told God didn't love me, he raped me, I could no longer have my name in the Lamb's Book of Life, my name was taken out of the Book of Life, and then they continued to program me with hypnotically taking my heart from my body, using drugs, so I didn't even know I had a heart. They dehumanized me to the point where there was no place to go except the family. No place to go.

Wayne Morris:
Were there other perpetrators involved in your family, other than your father?

Cisco Wheeler:
Oh definitely. I am trying to think of where I want to start. My primary programmer was Dr. Green, who was Dr. Josef Mengele. My other primary programmer was Dr. Black, who was my father.

Wayne Morris:
When did you realize that Dr. Green was in fact Josef Mengele?

Cisco Wheeler:
I always knew from my internal parts. My deeper parts were programmers and my father was trained by Mengele, he was his #2 man. We followed in my father's footsteps. We were also trained to be a programmer. That was our specialized field.

Wayne Morris:
Did he say or use his name at some points?

Cisco Wheeler:
Yes, he did. As well he went by Dr. Fairchild, Dr. Green.

Wayne Morris:
What's your understanding of Mengele's involvement in mind control across the continent?

Cisco Wheeler:
I am sure that he infiltrated every state, and I know he has worked up in Canada.

Wayne Morris:
What state were you located when he was performing mind control on you?

Cisco Wheeler:
Most of my programming occurred in California and Oregon. In California at China Lake Naval Base; the Presidio north San Francisco; and the Letterman Hospital next to the Presidio military base. In Alcatraz there was programming that went on in the prisons there. And Scotty's Castle in Death Valley in California. Also in Torrence, California. And at the State Mental Hospital in Salem, Oregon and in the big Masonic hospital called Dorenbecker here in Portland.

Wayne Morris:
What time frame would that have been in?

Cisco Wheeler:
1948-9 clear up to the middle 60's.

Wayne Morris:
How did you begin the process of healing yourself into disabling as much as possible the programming that was done to you?

Cisco Wheeler:
By stabilizing myself. By making sure I was in a safe place where I could do my work without being infiltrated. By sincerely making that effort to go towards health above all else. To work diligently on my memories and my programming, and to be a truth-seeker. To find out, no matter what had been done to me, I wanted to know what had been done. If you don't know where you have been, you don't know where you are going. It was very important for me to go towards health, because once I realized what they had done to me and the depths of the programming, I was going to stand by and not say anything, be silent, let it not be spoken ... I was going to beat the programming which has been hear no evil, see no evil, do no evil. I was going to beat that. I was going to tell. That was my determination that helped me fight the trauma of knowing what I had to learn about myself.

Wayne Morris:
The work that you had to go through to accomplish that level of healing - what does that involve in terms of dealing with your memories?

Cisco Wheeler:
I had to face the pain, the torture, face my own fears of the unknown, face the fact that my father didn't love me, face the fact that trauma bonding is not love and no matter what they say as far as in the name of love, there is no love involved in this. I had to look deep inside myself and find that spark of life that was left because they so dehumanize you as they are programming you to be their slave, that for some the light goes out and there is no hope, but for myself I was fortunate. There was some hope and there as a light, and that light enabled me to have the courage and the strength I needed to go towards health.

Wayne Morris:
How did the people around you help you through this?

Cisco Wheeler:
My support team was very helpful. It consisted of three women plus myself. We were all programmed around the same time by the same programmers. My father was a very strong in their lives, because he was their programmer. That tied us together emotionally. All four of us had made the determination that we were going to walk out of this and that we were going to go toward health. We became very bonded, not only from what we knew had ritually happened to us, and through the shared trauma base. We stepped out of that and started building a new type of friendship of trust, lifting each other up, building each other up, being there for each other, having a listening ear, learning how to document our memories, to be there no matter what time of the day it was for the first five years. We all needed each other at any given point. Two of the three ladies have medical degrees, the other is a teacher -- all four of us are free today because we stood together.
In our healing process the first thing we had to acknowledge within ourselves, and we each had to do this separately, is to acknowledge that we are MPD, that we are DID, and that we were generational families of satanism. Yes, we did practice satanism, and yes we were of the Illuminati bloodline, and yes, there is a lot of dirt in our lives, and yes, we don't want to look at it. It was too painful to look at. But there came a time when we wanted to step out of our denial and I think that's the most important thing in the healing process when I look back - we had the courage to look at our life and the reality in which it stood. We were programmed to be a programmer, and that gave us the ability to understand others as well as ourselves, and we could work together within a group, and we did gain a lot of strength from one another. But we also had to call a spade a spade. We couldn't run away from what had happened to us. That was our strength. It gave us the courage we needed to keep fighting.
Once we realized that yes, we were under mind control, and yes, we were slaves for the Illuminati - we didn't like the slavery in which we had been born into. We also didn't like the idea that we never were given a choice as to what happened to us. We wanted to be free agents. We just didn't know how to become a free agent. We had to fight for it. It didn't come easy. The nights were filled with trauma. The days were filled with trauma and pain. The body, soul and spirit is continually in a warfare as it goes towards health. It does not like to release the hidden knowledge of what was done to us, everything was done to us in secret. Because of the programs it didn't want to unravel itself and to do so was very very painful.

Wayne Morris:
Was the ability for you and the other survivors to be able to find a safe place, to be able to undergo this work with others - was this a significant factor in being able to break that control?

Cisco Wheeler:
Oh definitely. Even to the point where we would go to see our therapist, our handlers would be on the stairs of the building which we would enter to see our therapist - to let us know that if we said anything that would bring down the family or to expose the family, that we would pay for it later. They would be waiting for us. In other words, have a good time, enjoy your therapist, but we will be here waiting when you get out. The torture that came - you had to face them every single time you went to see your therapist, you had to face knowing they could be around a corner, or even run you off the road on the way to the therapist. They may burn your house down, or they may put a bullet through one of your children's heads, or through your bedroom window, or they are going to get to you one way or the other. You have to work with threats, the lies. That was at the beginning of our therapy work. Just to get through the trauma of the threat would keep most people at home. But what it did for us and the other survivors is that we became so angry that we decided we were going to fight them, even until death, because it's not over until God says it's over. When He says it's over, that's fine, we are ready to go home. We are going to fight this. We are going to win.
Before when we were under mind control and the memories were taken from us, we didn't have a choice. We didn't have a say in what they did to us. But this time it is different. We have a say. We could walk into the therapist's office or we could choose not to. But to have the ability to say 'even until death I am going to go to therapy, I am going to continue this journey' there was a lot of strength that came with that, because every time we took a step in the right direction, it gave us the power that we needed.

Wayne Morris:
So you found a lot of strength in the anger.

Cisco Wheeler:
Even when they got a hold of us in the first five years of our therapy, and they did get a hold of us, and they did torture us, and they did apply electrical shock, they did drug us, and they did rape us, over and over, they continued these things the first five years. Even after the trauma, it was still worth it. Because it was the first time we knew we were human. We had been so dehumanized from the trauma of the mind control, that just to have a spark of humanism, to really have the reality, "I am not a kitten." "I am a child, I am a woman, I was once a little girl." "It was all lies." You are willing to die for the truth ...

Wayne Morris:
You mentioned about trauma bonding ... can you explain to our listeners what that is and what it meant for you in your case?

Cisco Wheeler:
For instance, Dr. Green. He used to put us in the hot cages in the desert there, they were sweat tanks. He would come out there, after we had no water and no food for a number of hours (it seemed like days to us). We were told it was days, but common sense tells us that it was hours. These cages were set up so we could see outside the cages (like animal cages). In my memory, off to the left me were other cages ... with small children 2, 3, 4 years old. Green would come out there and he would have a daisy in his hand and he would walk through this area where we were being held in these holding tanks, and he would walk up to me and he would say, "I love you, I love you not, I love you ..." If he said "I love you not" I knew I was in big trouble because he had already set a prior example to me by walking in front of the cage to my left, and he told the little girl that he loved her not when he reached the last petal of his daisy. At that point, she was taken out, and she was eliminated in front of me. In other words, her life was taken from her at that point, to show his power and his control, and what would happen if Dr. Green ceased to love you.
What I failed to understand as a child, with a child's mind, is that it was set up. The murder did take place but the thing is, these were what they called "expendable" children. As for me, I was Illuminati, so they weren't going to eliminate me because they had a reason for me, they had my life planned for me. Part of the grooming is to set the stage. The script was played out when Dr. Green eliminated the child in the cage. I was to see all this, because it was a power play. If that's love trauma bonding, "I love you Dr. Green, I love you very very much because you could have said you didn't love me and I would be dead". He did "love me" because he "spared my life" - but it also showed me the power that this man had. Try to translate that into a child's mind when they are only four or five years old.

Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that the unpredictability of the trauma was a factor in the trauma bonding?

Cisco Wheeler:
Definitely. You never knew when you were going to be loved and when you weren't going to be loved - at any point there could be a change of direction. When my father was kind as my programmer, he was very kind but when he was ruthless, he was ruthless to the core. There was no humanism. He became less than a wild animal himself, there was nothing he would not do to get his point across. We have parts of ourselves that love him dearly to this day, who will always love him, they look up to him.

Wayne Morris:
How many other children were involved in this, that you were aware of, at the time?

Cisco Wheeler:
I knew in 1968 that there were over 2 million MKULTRA's. Since then I don't have the awareness or the knowledge because I am not seeing the paperwork or the records to tell me how many. If I was making a guess, I would say 10 million.

Wayne Morris:
How did you know 2 million were involved?

Cisco Wheeler:
Because I was a programmer and I saw the documented records on this.

Wayne Morris:
So they have been able to program victims to program other victims ... how did they go about doing that?

Cisco Wheeler:
They train you on the job. You have to realize within the Illuminati structure there are many levels to the system. My mothers were trained in programming. That's at the Illuminati level.

Wayne Morris:
They trained you in programming techniques?

Cisco Wheeler:
Yes.

Wayne Morris:
What kind of people did they make you perform this kind of programming on? Were they other Illuminati family members?

Cisco Wheeler:
They were all Illuminati children. We did not work outside of the Illuminati structure.

Wayne Morris:
As an Illuminati family member, what did they have in mind for you, why did they want to program you?

Cisco Wheeler:
The sole purpose - at the deepest layer of the system - lies mothers. They are the foundation. You have three mothers who are on a pedestal - their sole purpose is to rule and reign with the antichrist as his queen when he takes his throne. As god has a bride, so lucifer has a bride, and that bride is the mothers of darkness. That is the bottom line.

Wayne Morris:
Who would be this antichrist figure? I have heard of the name, "Lord Maitreya." Is this one candidate?

Cisco Wheeler:
He is one of the forerunners, a disciple. You have to understand the luciferian belief system and the way that the structure within the Illuminati is laid out. It is laid out according to god's word - so that it can stand, or it can be blasphemous of who god is. But when god sent his son to the earth, christ had twelve disciples that followed him. The antichrist is going to be like three in one, and he will also have twelve forerunners. This is where Maitreya comes in. He is a forerunner. John the Baptist was a forerunner for christ.

Wayne Morris:
Do you have any information on how they are going to accomplish this?

Cisco Wheeler:
They have already accomplished it ... by taking our constitutional rights away from us ... by having a government within a government, like a box within a box. By creating famines, by having wars and rumours of wars, by the American people and the Canadian people no longer having the freedoms that once were theirs.

Wayne Morris:
In a global sense, how is this related to what is known as New World Order?

Cisco Wheeler:
The New World Order is a body of people within the Illuminati, thirteen major bloodlines that rule the world and they set the stage, they play out the script, and there will be a complete fulfillment of what they have staged for the American people, Canadians, and the world. There is no doubt about it.

Wayne Morris:
What kind of things do you expect will occur in the future that relate to this?

Cisco Wheeler:
I believe that the people in the world are going to wake up some day very soon and realize that the stock market has crashed, that financially the world has been crushed. They are going to realize that their food and grain has been contaminated, that their medical field has been dominated by the Illuminati medical force because the Illuminati has infiltrated every aspect of our lives. They are going to realize that we don't have the freedom to even speak for our children, that the government has more to say in regards to our children than we do, they can take them and control them at any given point. We are going to realize that the churches are not what they seem to have been - that the churches have been infiltrated. There is nothing left. There is nothing that has not been touched by the Illuminati and its family.

Wayne Morris:
Is there a time when this is going to be implemented in terms of a one world, military government?

Cisco Wheeler:
Definitely. I expect 1998 to be a year of turmoil as far as people coming to terms with the knowledge that the government is not what they thought it was, the church is not what they thought it was, people they have looked up to are not who they thought they were.

Wayne Morris:
What kinds of things do you believe these power groups who belong to the Illuminati will try and implement in terms of controlling people's anger and responses to what they've got planned? What is their retaliation?

Cisco Wheeler:
To eliminate the people as a whole - anyone who doesn't come under submission of the New World Order will be eliminated.

Wayne Morris:
Do you think they will use the mind controlled victims to implement that?

Cisco Wheeler:
Most definitely.

Wayne Morris:
How do you think that is going to come about?

Cisco Wheeler:
They can use any slave that has been under mind control to accomplish any goal they have set forth with an access code, they can blow up a bridge, they can assassinate any leader - a governor, mayor, pastor - anyone that gets in the Illuminati's path, who will not bend or bow to the Illuminati structure - they have slaves in force who will just go and eliminate them. Whatever is needed, it is there. I guarantee you it is there.

Wayne Morris:
There have been quite a number of survivors of mind control talking about end-times programming where they know they are going to be triggered to do something. Is this related to that?

Cisco Wheeler:
Yes it is. Most definitely is. There is a clock ticking and it is going to strike midnight soon, and when it does, all hell is going to break loose within the world.

Wayne Morris:
Do you have an idea of a date?

Cisco Wheeler:
I do not give dates. I am not God and things can always change. The timetables can change because of circumstances surrounding what they are trying to accomplish. It can either rapidly speed up or time can stand still because everything has to work like a ticking clock - everything has to be in its place in order for the New World Order to come about. Everything has to be in its place.

Wayne Morris:
What do you think people can do out there to try to stop this or to prepare themselves for this?

Cisco Wheeler:
I believe that people need to understand there is a time to weep, and there is a time for war, every man and every woman should have the insight or the foreknowledge within themselves the answer to themselves. When they look around, if they are honest with themselves, they can see that the world is falling apart at its seams, something big is coming down, they need to look at themselves. Listen to themselves. Look and see and hear what is happening around them, and they need to start preparing themselves for the worst because the worst is coming. They need to be in a place, and in a state of mind that when the military soldiers are knocking at their doors and come after their children to take them down, that they say "not me, not me, not me and my house." We are in a fight. There is a time to fight.

Wayne Morris:
Part of your strength, as you said, has been from your anger in terms of trying to expose what they have been doing. What have you been doing since breaking free to a certain degree in terms of exposing what they have been doing? How have you been getting the word out to the public?

Cisco Wheeler:
I have co-authored three books with Fritz Springmeier, and in co-authoring these books we have taken our internal information and our knowledge that we have had because of our own experiences in the Illuminati and we have put it to the page. In other words, we have written it. Because we are a programmer, we understand the inside and the heartbeat of lucifer himself, because mind control and the Illuminati are nothing more than the heartbeat of satan himself, to bring down God's people, the world as a whole.

Wayne Morris:
What more do you think needs to happen in terms of exposing this to the general public?

Cisco Wheeler:
I believe that to understand what is going on within the heartbeat of the Illuminati, that you need to understand what the Illuminati are -- who they are, what they are, and what they have done. To understand something you need to have foresight -- without foresight you are walking in the dark and you are going to think you know but you really do not know until you come in contact with it -- even if it is through the pages of the written word. It's out there -- it's written. Whether it's me or Fritz or someone else, there is written material on mind control and people need to know what's been done. If they don't know what's been done to them, they are never going to know what can be done again to their families and their families, and their children.

Wayne Morris:
So what elements in terms of the Illuminati's belief systems and what they have been doing -- what elements are essential for people to understand?

Cisco Wheeler:
They need to understand that the Illuminati are satanists and that there isn't anything they will not do. They are gods unto themselves. They think they are gods and they are only serving lucifer. They have taken oaths to lucifer to serve him as their prince, as the father of light. They have taken blood oaths in order to see this, to see it done, to see the fulfillment of the end-time, to see the antichrist take his throne. They have done this for centuries.

Wayne Morris:
Do you think it is important that the general public understands the mind control aspects of this and how they have accomplished mind control?

Cisco Wheeler:
Most definitely. If they don't understand mind control, they are not going to understand what's happening in their backyard or in their schools or in their churches or in politics. They need to understand how they have been totally controlled from the cradle themselves -- that most everything they have been told is a lie.

Wayne Morris:
How important in terms of the Illuminati's bloodline is mind control on their own family members? What part does that play in promoting their goals?

Cisco Wheeler:
The Illuminati are very loyal unto themselves. They are gods. They see themselves as gods, and they stay within the Illuminati structure, within the royal bloodlines, within the thirteen ruling families. If you are not generational, you are not going to get into the Illuminati because this is passed from generation to generation from son to daughter to daughter to son, to father ... it touches everyone within the family for generations. This isn't something that just happened.

Wayne Morris:
It seems to be something more than just normal family allegiances at work here in that they have traumatized and mind controlled their own family members. I sense that has been an important part of perpetuating their end goals?

Cisco Wheeler:
That's true, because their allegiance is unto lucifer who I now will call him satan, that's who he is. They believe in the doctrinism of satanism that if they rule as gods and they are obedient to the call which is lucifer's call upon their life because they made blood oaths with him, then they will rule and reign with him in hell. They don't fear hell. They have no fear of hell. They only believe if they do what satan asks them to do, which he does tell them what to do, that they will stand as gods with him in hell and they will rule the people in hell. They will become gods with him. That is the big lie. They believe this. What can I say? That is the bottom line of the doctrine. They believe they will be gods in hell. And they all want to be gods because they see themselves as gods. As a god, they come under no authority except lucifer's authority. Lucifer does their bidding for them. He tells them exactly what to do, what he wants, and they will do it.

Wayne Morris:
Do you think this is driven by just the drive for power and the seduction of power? Is this what is underlying their motivation?

Cisco Wheeler:
It has to do with money, honour, power and glory -- it has to do with demonic entities -- with generational spirits.

Wayne Morris:
So they have aligned themselves with ...

Cisco Wheeler:
With lucifer and his demonic entities, yes, they are very demon possessed.

Wayne Morris:
Both you and Fritz have been helping other victims of this trauma-based mind control. How has the understanding of the programming techniques helped you help others?

Cisco Wheeler:
I have been able to help other victims of trauma-based mind control as I have made myself available to counsel without any charge. Also I have had -- because I have co-authored books with Fritz -- I have the information out there and they are wanting to talk to me about some of the material that has been written in the books because many of them have been facing the same issues and the same problems. Sometimes they just need a listening ear. Also in working with victims of mind control I can understand them in the complexity of who they are and for what has been done to them, without being judgmental. When they tell me they are MKULTRA and Dr. Green or Dr. Black or Dr. Blue or Dr. Star has programmed them and they have memories of this, immediately my heart becomes one with them because I have been there. I have walked in their shoes, and I know what they are going through. I want to hear what they have to say, and I care what has happened to them. I care. I see their journey -- not that I take on their journey -- but I see their journey and whatever I might say may give them the strength they need to continue to go towards health, and that's very important to me.

Wayne Morris:
I am wondering when you are working with other victims, has the act of remembering the trauma of their conditioning, does that help to disable the programming or conditioning?

Cisco Wheeler:
When someone else can walk where you have walked, or say yes, I do acknowledge that -- it's confirmation. We need confirmation. Because the atrocities that have been done to us in order to enslave us to the degree in which we were enslaved under total mind control that we didn't even know we were alive and well on planet earth without permission - you know what I'm saying?
When someone calls me and says "I remember such and such" and I'll say, "you're right on track -- your mind never lied to you -- I can confirm what you are saying -- these things did happen and yes, I am very familiar with this program." I will not tell them about the program because that's very dangerous to do so, but I will let them tell me what they know. Then I will give them the confirmation as to where they are.

Wayne Morris:
What other kinds of things can be done for victims in terms of their own healing and memory work? What else do you recommend for them?

Cisco Wheeler:
I think one of the most important things to remember is that we were all slaves. We were ruled and controlled by the harshest hand of mastery. We were controlled by very sadistic individuals and we were terribly, terribly treated. You wouldn't treat an animal the way we were treated. You wouldn't -- it's important to be sensitive to that because it's very painful. The body has felt raped, the mind has felt raped, the spirit has felt raped. And we need someone to say this really hurts and we need to have someone to say "you know I didn't walk where you have walked and so I can't totally comprehend what you are saying to me, but I am listening, and I truly believe what happened to you did happen to you." Because we have been so programmed to believe that if we tell the world that the world will call us a liar and they will stand us up and either shoot us or put us in prison for the crimes that have been done or that no one is going to believe the atrocities anyway. Did anyone believe about the Holocaust? The world didn't want to hear about the Holocaust. They didn't believe it. It's been how many years -- and people still don't want to believe that the Holocaust really did happen. And what happened to us is no less than what happened in the concentration camps.

Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that they have done particular types of trauma and conditioning that would set you up to be disbelieved by the public?

Cisco Wheeler:
Oh definitely. When someone like myself or Mr. Springmeier start telling you things about ritual abuse and satanic holidays and yes, they do this, and they do a,b,c and d, the mind goes "Uh, uh. I am going to shut down, you just hit a block here, I don't want to hear it." To hear it means that everything you have been told in your life all of a sudden is a lie. These things do happen. We are programmed within the story lines of fairy tales, etc. and that helps us.

Wayne Morris:
I talked about this with Fritz about how certain cultural - stories, movies, books are used ... Wizard of Oz ...

Cisco Wheeler:
Alice in Wonderland, make believe ...

Wayne Morris:
So this is done for a couple of purposes, both because of the prevalence of this type of material out in our 'cultural' world -- this reinforces the programming.

Cisco Wheeler:
And even if you haven't had the trauma-based mind control, you are still in a world of make believe because you are conditioned to a world of make believe through the fairy tales. There isn't any reality here, but the mind always wants to go back where it is safe.

Wayne Morris:
It seems like some of these programmers also have done things deliberately to discredit any accounts coming -- afterwards -- in terms of the victims, like them dressing up like Santa Claus -- just being ridiculous ...

Cisco Wheeler:
They do that so it invalidates you -- there are certain programs that if you remember this or that -- and I don't want to say it over the phone because I certainly don't want to be responsible for triggering someone out there -- but if you remember certain informatiion you immediately go into an insanity mode. These insanity modes are put in at a very deep level with hypnosis and drugs, and when you hit one, if you don't have a support team that you need, you will go insane. And you will end up in a mental institution. Who wants to believe someone that spent the last six months in a mental institution?

Wayne Morris:
In a general sense, I wonder if you can give some information to our listeners to sensitize them as to what kinds of things were done, what kind of techniques were used for the purposes of mind control? You mentioned hypnosis and drugs, trauma ..

Cisco Wheeler:
Yes, and electrical shock. I always speak for myself, and I go back to eighteen months when they wanted to make sure they splintered my mind. My father was my primary programmer, but he was also my father and when I was born I was isolated with my father in a small room within the environment of our own home, where my father became my primary care provider. I looked up to my father. By the time I was 18 months, because my father was a programmer, he could control my liver, my kidneys, my heart rate, my pulse, my respiration.

Wayne Morris:
How did he accomplish that?

Cisco Wheeler:
Through hypnosis -- I was so trauma-bonded to him. My survival depended totally on him. I was not exposed to the outside world. He was my handler, in every sense of the word. He fed me, he bathed me. I also was a premature birth which was very important because I was a very weak child when I was born. I weighed 2 lb. 1 oz. and he conditioned me through his voice - he always told me he could control me. He loved me to the point that, even in my infancy, as a newborn child, I was totally dependent on him for my life.
When I was 18 months old I was taken from him which was a shock for me because I had never been separated from him, and my first trauma came when I was raped by him. When he finished raping me I had to have reconstructive surgery done to repair the damage. That was the trauma that splintered my mind into a million pieces. I shouldn't say "million", it feels like a million to me -- rather thousands of pieces.

Wayne Morris:
What kind of things were you conditioned to do -- you mentioned sexual slavery -- what other jobs or operations were you programmed to do?

Cisco Wheeler:
I have Beta and Delta alters which are espionage alters -- they specialized in martial arts. They were alters that were used for blackmail of politicians, ministers, anyone that needed to be blackmailed in order to bring them under the subission of the Illuminati.

Wayne Morris:
How would this blackmail occur?

Cisco Wheeler:
Usually through a sexual act. Usually there would be a stage where they would have sex with a certain person and that person, during the sex act, would be traumatized to such a point that the person died and they would be blackmailed that they committed murder, when in fact they didn't. There are many different ways to set up blackmail. It would be recorded and that would be the sex slave's responsibility to do that, and to set that individual up.

Wayne Morris:
Who would be the people behind the blackmail?

Cisco Wheeler:
The Illuminati, the family, who wanted that person under their submission, under their rule, from that day forward. Deltas were assassination alters for anyone who doesn't want to follow the orders of the Illuminati -- anyone who wants to feel like they are bigger or better or stronger or more powerful, and can step outside the authority of the Illuminati and live -- will be eliminated. We also laundered drug money. But you need to understand that these particular alters don't live in the outside world, they live within the mind, within the construct of the mind. When they are needed, they are accessed through a specific code, they are brought up to awareness, to the front of the mind. They are then given the program as to where they are to be, what they are supposed to do, and then after they have done the job they are immediately traumatized again through electrical shock. That memory is shattered again in the mind and then they are put to sleep until the next time. They have no awareness of what's going on in the outside world, or that there is even another world except for the world they are programmed to function in.

Wayne Morris:
The electroshock served to wipe out the memory of the operation?

Cisco Wheeler:
As long as you do it within 48 hours.

Wayne Morris:
You and Fritz have been going public with this information. I understand you have been doing a number of radio shows, you have written books and people have contacted you about that. What kind of response have you gotten from the public with the information you are presenting?

Cisco Wheeler:
We have had very positive response from a lot of therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, ministers, people within our own government. We were just told several weeks ago that there are two congressmen who are reading the books and they are pleased with what has been written, because they know what we have written is factual and they are glad that it is getting out to the public. We have had people say that next to God's word, this book should be in every home, on every shelf, in every library ... Of course it has shattered a lot of their dreams and foundational structuring they have had within their own environment whether that is home or school or church, because things aren't as they seem. People who are truth-seekers are willing to pay that price because that may be the only way they can save themselves and their children.

Wayne Morris:
So some of the professionals who have come across your information have dealt with these issues in their own work ...

Cisco Wheeler:
Oh most definitely. My work has been confirmed by a number of professionals, and they say it's right on. Some of them have worked with multiples for twenty or twenty-five years, and they have confirmed my work.

Wayne Morris:
And what generally is the response from people who have not been exposed to this, just the general public?

Cisco Wheeler:
It's like a culture shock. If you can imagine going into Japan and not being able to speak Japanese - you wouldn't even know how to get a cup of coffee if you wanted one.

Wayne Morris:
And it must be even more of a shock because it's own culture they are confronting.

Cisco Wheeler:
It severs the traditional lies because if you are going to work in truth and you are going to have integrity then you have to see what is in front of you. Our book certainly puts on a light on the darkness so you can see what has happened to you. It's not only multiples who are programmed - the world is programmed. We are programmed to believe our presidents are men of honour, men of great integrity. Our presidents are rotten bastards - they are pedophiles, they are drug addicts, they practise high magic, they practise ritual. They think nothing of live sacrifice of small children. They think nothing of having their own slaves available to them. That's the way it is, that's the truth.

Wayne Morris:
In terms of the books you've written - how much have they gotten out to the public - is it yourselves who are distributing them or do you have distributors?

Cisco Wheeler:
We are self published. If we had a publishing company distributing them, the Illuminati would buy them all up and have the right to them, and we would lose our books.

Wayne Morris:
They would just disappear ...

Cisco Wheeler:
They would just disappear. We can't risk that.

Wayne Morris:
I also wanted to ask you - are you aware of your father's connection to any of the people involved in the CIA MKULTRA projects?

Cisco Wheeler:
Definitely. He was Dr. Green's left hand man. Dr. Green trained him. Also, Dr. Star, Dr. Blue, Dr. White ... these are alibi names. I know their real names but for the sake of survivors who might be listening, I prefer not to trigger them. That would be a very dangerous thing for me to do.

Wayne Morris:
What more do you think the public can do to help victims of mind control? What can the average person do to help?

Cisco Wheeler:
The average person can be a support person, they can contact ministers who are working with MKULTRA mind control survivors, they can contact therapists and say 'I've learned about MKULTRA, about mind control - I'm just beginning to have a picture of what has happened to these individuals who have been traumatized from their birth'. Ask 'how can I help you?' Can I work with you as a therapist, as a minister, as a layman - can I work with you to understand what mind control is? And as I grow and as I understand this subject at a deeper level, then can I reach out and be that hand extended to a survivor out there? Can I be there when they have ritual holidays that are approaching, when their mind wants to have flashbacks as to what happened to them during those ritual holidays? Can I be there to help that individual who can't get out of their house because they are so trauma-bound at this time because they are working on programs or they are fearful for their life and they won't even go to the grocery store because they are terrified? Can I be there to wash that dish because that survivor may not have the strength because she or he is working on their issues, and they are too weak to even do dishes. Can I be there to sit in the middle of the night listening to you because you are in so much pain from what you remembered? Can I be there at night to hold your hand? Can I be there to support you? Those are the little things that give stability to continue because you have to understand, as a survivor, in order to go towards health, everything that was done to us, in order to come out of this healthy, we have to re-live every trauma that was ever done to us. We have to know it with the full impact of our emotions, every sense of ourselves with these five senses that God gave us. We have to see it, smell it, touch it, hear it, feel it.

Wayne Morris:
It's just so difficult for people to understand what you have to go through.

Cisco Wheeler:
I can speak for myself and only for myself because I have experienced it - some of the memories I have had to go through in order to go towards health - as I was going through the memory I would lose control of the process which I needed to work. There's a certain process in retrieving memories that you need to focus on that - there are certain things that you need to do to keep the memory intact, so that the mind doesn't re-splinter itself. If the memory of what was done to you is so powerful that it splintered your mind when you were traumatized. Every memory we have re-traumatizes us. It's a process - it's something you have to learn, over and over again - because every memory has a different feeling. Every memory has a different purpose behind it.
So those who want to be there to help need to learn about mind control. There are many people out there who are working with survivors and they need a break too. They need to have a few days off once in a while, and they need to be able to have a good night's sleep. They need to know that if they want to go and do something special for themselves, that the survivor they are leaving is not going to be harassed all night or is not going to be contacted or is not going to walk out of that house and walk into a trap where they will be re-programmed or tortured. Because the Illuminati is just waiting for a slave to make a mistake and walk out of her house and meet their handlers. All programmed slaves have handlers, and they are just waiting for us. They answer to the Illuminati and their job is to make sure they punish us for what we have done, and that is that we have spoken against the family, we have seen what has been done to us, and we have not held our tongues, we have told, we have talked. And there is a great punishment that comes with that.

Wayne Morris:
For people listening who feel they may have been influenced by this kind of stuff, or know of people, what is your advice for them?

Cisco Wheeler:
I would advise them to seek out a therapist who has had training, at least five years of training, with MPD or DID victims. Who truly understand and believe that ritual abuse does exist on the planet earth. If you are trying to work with someone who doesn't even believe that satanic ritual abuse exists, you are wasting your time. If you are trying to work with someone who doesn't understand DID or MPD, you are also wasting your time because we have no time to play, our minds won't allow us to, there is no playfield here. This is a life and death issue. If you are not in the right setting and working with the right person, they could cost you your life. There is a very high percentage of suicides in recovery for victims of ritual abuse.

Wayne Morris:
In your experience Cisco - how important was it having a strong support system to be able to heal?

Cisco Wheeler:
On a one to ten scale - it's the top ten. Without a support system, you might as well forget it in my opinion. I was one of the more fortunate ones in my healing process - I had Fritz Springmeier who was my support team for many, many months and even into years he was there for me, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, day in and day out.
Therapists have this idea that - and I have heard top therapists say that it's all right to work with a survivor - I prefer to use the word "victim" because we are continually victimized, internally and externally. They say, "well we can spend the one or two hours a week with them and if they get picked up by their handler, that's okay, because we have still made progress." I just about died when I heard this the first time. I thought, man, if you were the one who was picked up by one of your handlers and you were raped, or you were gun-raped, or you were bruised as bad as what I have been bruised, internally and externally, you wouldn't be saying this. When they victimize you and they traumatize you and they de-program you, only the front part of the system is told to tell their therapist they are doing very well. The programs are so intact, and we are so fine-tuned that parts of yourself can be dying internally but part of the system will go to work every day never knowing anything ever happened. It's pathetic. What people do not understand is how severe the trauma is when your handlers get a hold of you and what you could even do to yourself if you don't have someone there. When those programs go off they are hot - they are hot as they were the day they were put in - whether that was twenty years or thirty years ago, it doesn't make any difference - they are red-hot - and when I wanted to cut I wanted to cut myself - when I wanted to burn - I would burn myself. There were times when I had to literally be held down because I couldn't help myself because the programs were so powerful. Therapists don't understand, neither do people understand the depth of the programming - to what extreme they went to ensure everything they did to us would stay intact to be obedient to the laws that govern the Illuminati.

Wayne Morris:
So part of the role of your support team is in helping limit being re-accessed by your programmers?

Cisco Wheeler:
Oh yeah. And it takes a special individual like Fritz - I can only speak for myself because I don't know anyone else who has been as fortunate as I was to have a support person who stayed with me during those hard times. He stayed with me when it wasn't so hard, because there are lot of days that are good, days that are bad. Where we got into trouble - our front system is extremely powerful - very high functioning. They swore up and down that they weren't being contacted, threatened, no harm had come to them in twenty years as far as they knew. That was their information. It doesn't work that way because you have amnesia walls, you are not supposed to know. They go deep, deep into the system. I know the front part of myself - the alters within the front part of my own mind - they made contracts with their therapist, with Fritz, with God - there were certain things they wouldn't do. There were boundaries they wouldn't cross - no, they wouldn't leave the house at 1 a.m. Well, you have sleep triggers and so forth during certain ritual holidays. The minute that front system lays down, there are deep parts that are ready and willing to go. The alters in the front of the mind go to sleep, the other alters slip out. The front alters think they slept all night. Well, we have been playing all night. You know what I am saying?

Wayne Morris:
It must be devastating to realize they have affected you at such a deep level.

Cisco Wheeler:
You cannot make contracts for the deeper parts of the mind because the mind doesn't even know what's going on within the front system, nor are they going to make it a commitment, because they are 100% programmed. They are going to do what they are told to do because they know nothing else. They only know the scripts which are running within their own mind.

Wayne Morris:
I think it's a testament to your courage and strength to be able to have broken the control as much as you have, and to have gone through and dealt with what you have, and I think that sends out a hopeful message to other mind control victims out there.

Cisco Wheeler:
There is lots of hope out there for mind control victims if they have a very strong support system. Like with Fritz - he stayed with me 24 hours a day, and when it was bad, when I would go into memory and be triggered by something and programs would kick in - he was there to support me - to help me talk it through. And he taught me how to run the two tracks. One track I acknowledge as the program track and the other track is the de-program track so that I could balance myself out and get back on my feet. You can stay within a program for days if you don't have someone to teach you how to free yourself up from the old messages.

Wayne Morris:
Can you explain how that worked? How you thought about the two tracks in terms of your breaking control?

Cisco Wheeler:
In my mind, I have the first track set up as: I wanted my life to be new - I made a commitment that I wanted a change of direction - I did not want to be what I was - I did not want to function in the degree in which I functioned working within the Illuminati. I wanted nothing to do with it. I wanted to wash my hands of it and walk away from it. I was very upset at what had been done to me, that my choices as an individual had been taken away from me from infancy. I totally had to acknowledge that I was under slavery. I didn't like it, and my choice was 'I'm out of here - I am going to find a way to get out of here if it's the last thing I do - I would rather be dead than to serve them." And I still feel that way and it's been several years. I still feel very strongly that I would rather be dead than to serve them. I had to come to terms with the fact that I had to find a new way to function. Okay - I have a new track here and on that track I am going to go right across it in an unprogrammed state. You have to see the power, or realize in your mind how good it feels to be able to have a choice that you can make freely because that's what they have taken away from you.
If you are a child and you have learned to walk and you go outside and get hit by a car, and your legs are crushed, and you have to be in a cast for months and months and you have to re-walk when those casts are taken off -- as a survivor I have learned to walk. I had to learn to crawl, I had to learn to walk, now I can run, it's a process.
I also know that I have a second track which is the old messages put in by the programmers which lead me in a state of total 100% mind control, under the influence of the old script, the old programs. I know when I am in that state, I am in a dangerous state. That's when I would cut myself, run away, didn't want to live, all the negatives in life. When the programs kick in from the subconscious to conscious awareness, the memories trigger the programs, they reveal themselves with the full impact of the trauma when they layered it into our minds so many years ago.

Cisco Wheeler:
In deprogramming we have to unravel the programming script and find the lie. When you find the lie then you can put the light on it and the lie loses its power. That's where the miracle is. Your programs are lies. That's all they are. Was I an ugly little girl? No. I wasn't. Children aren't ugly. Children are beautiful. I found the lie. They lied to me. Did anybody ever love me? As far as the cult was concerned no one could ever love me except the family because I was unlovable. Because of the crimes that were done to me, they put the guilt and the responsibility on me instead of taking the responsibility for their own acts as adults. They gave me the responsibility and I wore the coat of many colours. I had to weave a new coat and that's where the two tracks help.

Wayne Morris:
It seems that they have been able to continue doing these horrific acts against other people by not taking responsibility or not taking blame for their own actions and externalizing that.

Cisco Wheeler:
I believe that for every survivor out there - when you were programmed in the womb and you were 100% under their control - when they tell you to cry, you cry. When they tell you to scream, you scream. When they tell you to eat, you eat. Every facet of your life is totally controlled by them. When Fritz found a part in my system, and he told me I was a little girl, I just looked at him and told him, "you're crazy, I am not a little girl, I am a kitten." I looked in the mirror and I had a porcelain face and on that a face is a kitten and that's how they programmed me. They had so dehumanized me as a sex kitten that I didn't even know I was a child. When I went through the memories so I could have an identity for myself, I realized that to be a little girl was the most painful thing in the whole world, because every time I was human in any sense of the word, or I thought I had any humanism as far as being a little girl, I was so severely tortured that I reached a place in my own mind that I never wanted to be a little girl. It was too painful to be a little girl.
They set up two cages for us - one cage was full of nice, beautiful little kittens - white, calico, black, persian gray. I was in the cage next to them with a pan that was hooked to electrical current. Every time I wanted water or to eat something, and I touched that pan, I was shocked. That's just one little example. I was shamed, I was spit on, totally humiliated in that cage for being a little girl. The Illuminati, Dr. Green, my father, made sure that the kittens were fed whatever they wanted to eat. They were loved, petted, cooed at - just loved - for a number of days. After all the trauma I had gone through, I guess my little mind decided not to be the little girl, but to be a kitten. The kittens get to eat, are not lying in their feces naked, they are not being shamed, spit on, kicked. When I had memories of this, my body was so bruised from the kicks I had received from the Illuminati family in the programming that I had to wear the bruises on my body until I worked through the memory. That just gives you a little example of how far they go to make sure they get what they want.

Wayne Morris:
Extremely sadistic.

Cisco Wheeler:
I haven't thought about it in about three years, but these little kittens are very powerful in my mind today as I am talking on the phone. I see these kittens, and how well they were treated. My father totally rejected me at that point. I loved my father very much because I was conditioned to do so. I loved him in his gentleness, and in his weakness and his strength, and when he was bad. It didn't matter because the mind was set up to accept whatever he was.

Wayne Morris:
Do you feel your father was also a victim of programming?

Cisco Wheeler:
I have no doubt in my mind that my father was a multiple. My father was a genius at every level, but he had a gentle side, he was a musician as well as satanist. Like I said, he worked for the CIA, he was a 33rd degree Mason plus - there are many levels beyond 33 by the way. He was a Grand Master. He sat on the Grand Druid Council. He was a very wise man, just not wise in the right things. It's too bad that his learning hadn't been applied in other directions - he would have gone far. I can't respect my father for who he is.

Wayne Morris:
Do you think he had a choice in the matter?

Cisco Wheeler:
No. I don't because it was generational. He was trapped as I was trapped. But the difference between me and my father is that there was a part of my father that knew, even when the good side of my father that loved his family, worked in the workplace, was in the military -- there is a real positive part about my father. He was a people lover, he loved people and people loved him. But I think there was a time in my father's life when he realized what he was and what he was doing, I think the barriers within his own mind, within his own multiplicity, had broken down to the point that he knew, but he also knew he was in over his head. It would cost him his life to move away or to change directions. He was too far in.

Wayne Morris:
Then obviously the difference being that you chose, you made the choice to break away and to fight that.

Cisco Wheeler:
Right. And there is a willful act within the family, the Illuminati family, there is a willful act there. And I can honestly say the things we did, we did because we were groomed. We were programmed to do so, but when the light was put on, and we did the memory work, and we had a free choice to say "do we or don't we?" our system didn't want to. We wanted to do right, we wanted that hope, that chance to be what we really wanted to be that was born into us, and that was to be good. That's the simplest way to say it. I still feel very childish, I feel like a child that wants to be good. I don't want to be bad. I don't like what was done to me and I don't like what has been done to others. It's been totally unfair. It has destroyed many, many lives. The one thing that I wanted to say is that when I first came out of the system and Fritz was working with me on a daily basis, I asked him, "these children in the world, do their fathers rape them?" He said, "no, good fathers do not rape their children." It threw me for a loop, and I stood there and I looked at him and said, "I really feel sorry for these children in this world because they are not loved." He said, "oh but they are loved" and I said, "oh no - if the fathers aren't raping their children, then they are not loved." I thought rape was love. That's pretty sick.

Wayne Morris:
They just turned those ideas upside down.

Cisco Wheeler:
The first time I had ever had a tear in my eye was when he told me that little girls and little boys aren't normally raped by their fathers, that is not the standard of living in which we live. And that upset me to such a point - that was the first time I ever felt a tear on my face. Because I really felt so bad that children were not being loved by their fathers. And it took me a long time to understand the difference, because right is wrong, and wrong is right, that's how you are programmed. Isn't it something, when you really think about it? I look back on it now, and I cannot believe the ability they had to do to my mind and so many other survivors out there. To what degree they would go.

Wayne Morris:
Especially to children.

Cisco Wheeler:
At Inucurran (sp) they had cages on the walls. They put us in the cages and the monkeys or the apes got to take care of us. We had three of them. One fed us, one beat us, and one raped us to dehumanize us.

Wayne Morris:
... God ... oh boy ...

Cisco Wheeler:
I still wake up and here I am in my fifties and when I was working on my memories at Inucurran (sp) in the cages -- well see, whatever they want in the system -- if they want a particular part in the mind to be a particular something they had to set the stage for that to come about.

Wayne Morris:
So that they are manipulating a particular context to achieve a certain end ...

Cisco Wheeler:
Yes, a certain image within the mind. A child has creativity but they have to give us the creativity from which to work from because you have to understand that the mind is protected by the family in that it is hidden within itself, like a box within itself -- boxes and boxes, many boxes and each box has a family within the mind or it's all set up like a grid. A 13x13 grid and 13 deep, so your hidden parts get no influence from or to the outside world. When I came out into the world and I met Fritz, I had never known what the world was. I had the freedom of knowing how to go to the grocery store or where was it or what was it. I didn't know because I was only programmed to do what they wanted me to. They would wake me up, give me my programs, put me on the right track as to where they wanted me to be. I would go do what they wanted me to do, as soon as I did it, back to sleep I went. I had no influence.
When Fritz told me that I had a family and a mother that was still living I thought the man was crazy. Here's something else that will just throw you for a loop -- I have seven grandchildren, that means I have three children of my own that are grown. When he introduced me to my son when he was thirty (he's a pilot) out of courtesy I just said, well it's very nice to meet you in my mind. Afterwards I told Fritz, you are absolutely crazy. You think I'm crazy -- you guys, you've had it. You're telling me I am programmed as a kitten, a sex kitten, and when I look in the mirror I see a porcelain face, a kitten's face, and I am 17 years old and I am not supposed to age. When you look at me and I am fifty years old, and you look at me and take a picture of me I am 17. I still look 17, but the point is I was so totally 100% programmed that when Fritz wanted to give me the truth about what happened to my life, my mind couldn't even receive it because I had so much programming. It took me two years to realize I wasn't a kitten before I believed him. Two years of hard work every single day to break down the lies. That's how strong my defense was. I looked at all these kids and this is what I said to Fritz: "Fritz you are absolutely crazy. You expect me to believe that this is my son. You are telling me that my son is thirty years old. I have no recall. I didn't carry him." I didn't remember him when he played as a child. I had no identity with this child whatsoever, that's how dark it was inside my world. I said, "He's thirty years old, and I am seventeen -- wait a minute here Fritz, something doesn't add up. You're crazy. You expect me to bite that apple? And I'm going to bite it and I'm going to believe this, right?" That's the way the mind is. That's just one example. He introduced me to my mother, to my sisters. I had two sisters that I didn't know about.

Wayne Morris:
So as you went through your memory work did you regain those parts of your life in terms of knowing who your children were and ...

Cisco Wheeler:
I have had to build relationships. As I was able to get stronger and work on the memories -- first I had to acknowledge the lie -- that is, that my father liked me. That was a very harsh lie for me. I could not believe that my father had ever lied to me, not my father. I cannot express how hard it was for me to acknowledge that my father lied to me. Because if I accepted the first lie, then I had to accept all the other lies. I didn't want to. I did not want my father defaced. As time went on, months went on, then I had to face what he was and what he had done to others. If he did this to me and I was his child, oh my God, what has he done to so many other children being a programmer? And that just about killed me.

Wayne Morris:
Again, that must have been devastating to you.
I would like to thank you very much Cisco for joining us on this show. I know it's very difficult to talk about these issues, and I really admire your enormous courage in exposing this.

Cisco Wheeler:
Thank you very much, thank you for asking.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wayne Morris:
We have been listening to an interview with Cisco Wheeler, a survivor of Illuminati family and U.S. government mind control. Tapes of this radio series are finally available at the office of CKLN, 380 Victoria in Juergenson Hall on Ryerson University campus. Tapes are $8.00 each and transcripts are $3.00 each. Catalogues are available listing all the shows. I would like to spend this next few minutes just commenting on last weekend's CBC docudrama - The Sleep Room. In my opinion it was a little too heavy on the drama and too little on the docu based what we have heard on this radio series about Ewen Cameron and his role in CIA mind control on children. It was a two part series, and the first part I found particularly misleading in portraying Cameron as someone with "good but misguided" intentions -- especially using the reason that he left the Allen Memorial due to finding out his patients were not being cured ... also for what it left out about Cameron's role in CIA mind control technology development, including his involvement with experiments on children ... and other disinformation. The movie portrayed the CIA's motive as being just to keep up to the Communists with mind control technology, and the portrayal that the CIA just started experimenting with mind control when it is a documented fact that the CIA had been producing mind control programmed agents ten years previous to that. They also portrayed Cameron as not being concerned with military and intelligence applications for his work -- I find that a little hard to swallow. And not being aware of electroshock's effects of wiping out memory -- when he was an electroshock expert and trained many other psychiatrists how to use electroshock. Other disinformation was that the experiments didn't "amount to anything" and were ultimately useless to the CIA when they have taken mind control technology far beyond what was portrayed and that it was useless is a lie. If CBC had done its homework, maybe they wouldn't be perpetrating this lie. I don't know, maybe they would. They made no attempt to link Cameron to the other well documented doctors involved in MKULTRA or what they were trying to accomplish, what their end goal was in creating Manchurian Candidate type mind control operatives.
The second part of the "docudrama" dealt with the survivors' battle for legal justice. Some good things I thought were the portrayal of the Canadian government reps covering up for the CIA and the sheer sliminess of the CIA scum lawyers. However, it may have had the effect on people who were watching it, especially on people who aren't aware of what is going on in mind control that justice was eventually served -- even though the amount of money that the survivors received was really a joke in light of what these people went through. I felt that CBC considers this movie now closes the book on mind control atrocities, and that's far from the truth. These atrocities, as we have heard in this series, are continuing today.
I thought it was unusual that David and Valerie Orlikow were excluded from being characters in the film when they were the driving force behind the lawsuit and also particularly because David was a Canadian Member of Parliament and the weight that would have carried to bring about the suit. I think it may have been satisfying for survivors of Cameron's atrocious experiments to have seen the movie and how the survivors were portrayed in their search for justice, but the reality is that these people were not the only victims of Cameron and all of the other mind control doctors across Canada and the U.S. I do hope that the movie is raising public awareness about mind control and what Cameron did, and hopefully it will encourage public discussion about this, but I think many people might think that this happened a long time ago, it was settled, end of story. Well, the story does not end there folks. It's continuing right here on CKLN, and we are continuing the series next week. Stay tuned, we will have an interview with Brice Taylor, former mind control slave used by the White House as a Presidential Model sex slave and by the CIA and other intelligence groups, and she is also the author of the book "Starshine: One woman's valiant escape from mind control".
You have been listening to CKLN 88.1 FM.

Fritz Springmeier Interview

Here is some more to prepare you for the material soon to be sent. Please utilise this material only to integrate your compassion to ever greater synthesis of coherent Unity.
A Midway path that has no attachments to the ends of black or white cannot be touched by any illusionary binary code of the computer of the universal dream.
With these codes now emerging into the consciousness of the public mind, it means tens of thousands of Monark slaves coding system will be evident for the public and will be revealed, as will their handlers who rely on the public at larges' naivity therein.

Hence, we are one step further to bringing the cancer amidst the secret stagnation of the body of humanity into the imm-une system of compassion, as we as Cosmic Man incarnated within this universal computer to wake up its binary code through phase-conjugational all encompassing compassionate love, coherent integration in action as the Hum-our of All-Oneness.
Here is one more of these breakthroughs in Unity realisation (the most important material is to come over the next days). Let us be All Is God Conscious integration, as the Unity of Unity's With and As Us.


‹Ananda, September, 2000


CKLN fm 88.1
International Connection
Ryerson Polytechnical University
Toronto, Canada

Wayne Morris:
Good morning, welcome to the International Connection. This is show #35 in the radio series on Mind Control and over the next few shows we are going to be talking to Fritz Springmeier and Cisco Wheeler, co-authors of the "Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Control Slave" and "Deeper Insights", books about trauma based conditioning mind control. Fritz is a researcher about the Illuminati and minister to mind control victims. Cisco Wheeler says she is from a generational Illuminati family and that trauma-based mind control was perpetrated against her from birth. We will hear the interview with Cisco in a couple of weeks, and today we are going to hear an interview with Fritz Springmeier. Fritz talks about the Illuminati families and how they have used mind control to consolidate their power throughout history. You are listening to CKLN 88.1 FM.
I am speaking with Fritz Springmeier author, lecturer and minister to mind control survivors. Welcome to the show Fritz.

Fritz Springmeier:
Thank you and hello to all you listeners out there in radioland. I encourage you to participate with our program today because we are going to be speaking about some important things that affect your life and will affect the lives of your grandchildren.

Wayne Morris:
I would like to start off with asking you how you first came across the information about government mind control.

Fritz Springmeier:
Government mind control overlaps with many other things - it overlaps with a higher government and a secret world government called the Illuminati. As I investigated the Illuminati I had to also learn about their front that they operate. They hide behind the veil of National Security. They use our patriotism against us and make us think that for our own interest, for our own security of our own nations, that we have to subject ourselves to all the secrecy that they impose upon us.

Wayne Morris:
Did you come across all the information about mind control through your research into the Illuminati, or vice versa?

Fritz Springmeier:
Yes, through the Illuminati. That's not to say that I hadn't been watching the government too, but a lot of what we see out front is just that - it's a front and if we really want to understand what's going on, we have to look behind that front.

Wayne Morris:
Maybe you could explain to our listeners, to your understanding, who are the Illuminati?

Fritz Springmeier:
The Illuminati are the movers and shakers of the world. They are an elite group of bloodlines - I call these tribes or families - there are 13 major bloodlines. They are what are called "generational satanists". That means that they have practised their secret witchcraft for many centuries and they have passed their religion down from one generation to the next. They lead double lives. They have one life that the world sees and then they have a hidden life that the world doesn't see. There have been very few people that have been able to break through the secrecy. They have taken secrecy to a fine art that I would never have believed that anyone could achieve until I started getting into this, and there have been very few people over the years that have broken through that secrecy at all. There was a man named John Robison who wrote proofs of a conspiracy against all the religions and governments in Europe carried on in the secret meetings of the Freemasons, the Illuminati and reading societies. That came out in 1798 and the Bavarian government, by raiding several safe houses of the Illuminati, captured original Illuminati documents back at that time period which were bound and sent out to all the governments entitled: "Die Originalschriften des Illuminatens Ordens" (sp?) as the German title the Bavarian government gave it.
But in modern times there have been very few people that have been able to talk about the Illuminati as it exists today, and that's been my job. To bring to the world who these people are, what their traditions are, what they are doing, everything about them. The reason I am giving a longer version here to your question is that when someone asks who or what are the Illuminati, they do not think like we do. People often times interpret things around them in terms of how they themselves think or their own world view. If you want to understand the Illuminati, you have to understand that these people do not think like you or I.
In just one area alone, that is a large percentage of these people are programmed multiple personalities and just that in itself creates a whole different thinking pattern from those of us who are not multiple.

Wayne Morris:
When you say the Illuminati, is this the same group that is documented that Adam Weishaupt had started back in 1776 in Bavaria? Is this the same group?

Fritz Springmeier:
It's the same group. He actually didn't start the organization, it goes way back. These are oligarchical families that are extremely powerful and if you go back in history and ask yourself the question, "when did the elite, powerful, oligarchical families ever give up their power?" You can't find any point in history. These are the families that - some of these bloodlines go clear back to Nimrod. The Rothschild secret genealogy that they have secretly written down through the centuries, traces their genealogy back to Nimrod. These people were the ones that controlled the mystery religions. There was a supreme council that sat over all of these mystery religions of the ancient world. They were an extremely powerful priesthood, and they chose to go underground for many years and continue working behind the scenes. But they never left.
At the end of WWII there was a committee that was sent out throughout Europe to do a study of all of the churches that had been destroyed by the war, and they discovered that in most of these Christian churches (80%) they found that where the Christian alter had been, when these churches had been destroyed, underneath these alters were pagan alters that had been uncovered. So what you have is that a lot of these cathedrals were built on lay lines that were very powerful occult spiritual points and on after hours these churches were used for what we would call satanic rituals. So this has been going on secretly for many centuries.

Wayne Morris:
And you are saying that the Illuminati are responsible for infiltrating these churches?

Fritz Springmeier:
These are our movers and shakers, very powerful bloodlines. For instance, one of these bloodlines includes all of your royal families of Europe. They are the people that have been in control. If you look at a lot of these nation states, you will notice that at the head of their church are their kings and queens.

Wayne Morris:
You mentioned there are 13 families in the generations of the Illuminati families? Can you name them?

Fritz Springmeier:
I came out with a book that was specifically designed to go family by family and discuss them. The top 13 bloodlines are the Astors, Bundy, Collins, Dupont, Freeman, Kennedy, Leigh, Onassis, Rockefellers, Rothschild, Russell ... then there is a 13th bloodline which is the Merovingian bloodline. I just simple call it the 13th and then there is the Van Dine Illuminati bloodline. The 13th bloodline, the Merovingian, is extremely important. It includes the royal families of Europe. In my Volume I book which covers the Top Thirteen Illuminati Bloodlines, that's the title to it, I don't go into the Merovingian bloodline so much because there came out a trilogy of books, "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" and two other books by their authors - Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln - which is so good in discussing this bloodline that wasn't any real reason for me to go into it.
For instance Prince Charles would be part of that. If you look at Prince Charles, you will notice in his genealogy he is related to our Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Madison, both of the Harrisons, Tyler, Taylor, George Bush. Bush's vice president, Dan Quayle, was also related to the royal family. Prince Charles is also related to Mrs. Woodrow Wilson. Here in the USA the concept is that we have all of these individuals who have been selected to run this country who are unrelated to each other -- and yet it is quite the contrary.
I have been told when they dedicated George Bush's library in Texas recently, that President Carter mentioned that he was reading a recently published book about the Presidents being somehow related to each other.

Wayne Morris:
When did you first realize the existence of the Illuminati? What information came your way to spark your interest?

Fritz Springmeier:
Everybody has probably heard of Jehovah's Witnesses and how they would go out and knock on people's doors. I was the opposite. I was a Christian missionary to bring Jehovah's Witnesses to Christ and I was getting tired of working with these little Jehovah's Witnesses on the street, and I was praying to God to be given the power to decapitate the authoritarian organization that is over these Jehovah's Witnesses. At that point, I got my prayer answered. I got this confidential information that the heads of the Watchtower Society were collaborating with the heads of the Latter Day Saints church. That information totally changed my life. I had bumped into the Illuminati and their mind control, and I am not to single out the Watchtower Society and the Mormon church because I found out that their infiltration and control is pretty well right across the whole spectrum. Your Christian organizations in general have been infiltrated and controlled from behind the scenes.
This is when I first bumped into the Illuminati. I had learned about 20 years previous to this what a lot of people are already aware of about the Council of Foreign Relations, Trilaterial Commission and these types of groups, the Bilderbergers - but there is a whole other level to things. When I started getting into reading, researching and trying to help people that wanted out of the Illuminati to get out - I started getting in at that level. Then I had to work with the mind control. One thing led to another.

Wayne Morris:
What is the relationship of the groups you just mentioned to the Illuminati?

Fritz Springmeier:
There are a lot of groups around the world that are making decisions that are controlling things from behind the scenes and these particular groups are fronts for the Illuminati. Not fronts in the sense that they have no actual purpose, they serve a purpose. But there is a hidden level of control back behind them.

Wayne Morris:
In terms of the Illuminati families and the whole organization itself, what are their goals? Why have they infiltrated so many of these organizations?

Fritz Springmeier:
Ultimately it's to bring in what people have termed the New World Order with a man who will hold the world's attention and carry the title The Antichrist. That's the ultimate goal and I am not trying to wax religious on people but that's just the simple fact. When you get into deprogramming people you will see that a lot of the things they have been programmed to do tie in with a very sophisticated plan to unify the world under the reign of the Antichrist.

Wayne Morris:
You mentioned that the Illuminati group has used mind control to further their goals. How did you first come into this? You have been working with your partner, Cisco Wheeler, who I understand was an Illuminati mind control victim. How did you first meet and realize what was going on there?

Fritz Springmeier:
She was trying to break free of her mind control. What I stumbled upon was, at least in my opinion, the greatest slavery involved in all history. You had four high level Illuminati women who had been teamed together. They had all become Christians and were trying to break free and had become a support system for each other. Here I was a researcher of the Illuminati, there's a lot to try and explain. When you are under the mind control, there is a lot of programming not to reveal the secrets. It is very difficult for someone who has been in the Illuminati and received their standard mind control to not divulge what is going on, so it made it much easier to work with me that I had already done my homework, and they knew I was going to understand what they were talking about. They didn't have to say a lot to communicate certain things, because I was already aware and that saved them from a lot of the grief from the program kicking in for having talked too much.
Cisco was part of this group attempting to escape the mind control, and I got involved in their lives and did what I could to help them. I brought Cisco out of the Illuminati and in return my learning curve about the Illuminati was greatly increased because I was given inside information from these people and a number of other people. Like I say, trying to understand the secret organization, the secret bloodlines is very difficult, because one has to stand outside of one's own culture and own way of thinking and understand these people as they think, and they do not think like we do. Being able to work with these people who were in the Illuminati was very valuable.

Wayne Morris:
Because they have used mind control techniques on their own family members throughout the years?

Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yes. They have been carrying out this mind control on their own people as well as others for centuries and this has all been a very closely guarded secret. It's one of the reasons why they have been able to carry out so much to implement this New World Order without people being able to figure out there is such a thing as a worldwide unified conspiracy. They are very skilled in knowing how to bring things about so they appear natural.

Wayne Morris:
What is the purpose of them using mind control on their own family members?

Fritz Springmeier:
It's really essential. If you are going to participate in the Illuminati secret life, being a programmed multiple is basic. There are a few in the Illuminati who aren't programmed multiples, but considering what one has to participate in. You've got a number of standard rituals involved - St. Weinbald, St. Agnes, Grand Climax, Walpurgis, Beltane, all your solstices and equinoxes, Lamas, All Hallow's Eve, High Grand Climax -- all of these standard rituals. These rituals are very horrific. They involved human sacrifice. Sacrifices of babies on the High Grand Climax. On various Sabbats you've got a young female or a male being sacrificed.
This is not something that the normal mind is going to be able to handle. The mind control and the creation of multiple personalities where you get a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde effect - is very crucial to this thing continuing from generation to generation.

Wayne Morris:
They really use the multiple personalities to facilitate this double life that they have to lead ... before we get into the techniques that they use for mind control and the details of that, you mentioned they seem to have a belief system as well. Could you talk about that?

Fritz Springmeier:
The Illuminati is the continuation of the Mystery Religions and as someone comes an adept of the Illuminati they have to learn a whole series of paths. They give the different types of cult knowledge names from the 12 Apostles plus the 13th is called the Holy Grail. These men and women become very skilled in occult knowledge and I am not sure how much I should go into that, but I guess what I am trying to say is that they will be trained in alchemy, in Indian sorcery, Druidism, Enochian magik, Gnosticism, Hermetic magik, cabbalism, Plato, Sufism - they will know all the different branches of occult systems.

Wayne Morris:
How do they use that information? Do they incorporate elements of all of those occult belief systems into their own?

Fritz Springmeier:
It all ties in together. The idea is to amass occult power to yourself and that's the reason why the Collins family was brought into the top 13 bloodlines. Of course the Merovingian Dynasty had a lot of magik power and a lot of political power, but the Collins family which was Scottish had extremely powerful occult powers so it was brought in to be one of the top occult lines because they were such powerful black magicians. Cabbalism and the 26 path workings - this is all very important in the work that they do, and it all ties in with the mind control too. But most of the therapists out there are secular or approach it from the secular angle, and as they deal with these mind control victims' programming, they don't touch on the spiritual aspect. What I am trying to say is that their religious beliefs can't be separated from the mind control. It is an integral part of that.

Wayne Morris:
Do the Illuminati worship a single being such as Lucifer?

Fritz Springmeier:
You've got different levels in which people operate within the Illuminati. There is the anarchy level which is your common witchcraft coven, and then you've got your hierarchy level. On the anarchy level there are thousands and thousands of covens. I have listed the addresses and names of hundreds of these in one of my books. These covens are very eclectic. They can have their own traditions, their own rituals. There is a wide variety of practices on the anarchy level ... that's what it looks like, is total anarchy. One doesn't see any connection.
Above that is your hierarchy level where you would have Asmodeus, your Grand Masters, and Mothers of Darkness, Grandmothers, Granddaughters. If you are a programmed multiple, you can function at many different levels. You can have one personality in this coven, and another personality in that coven and this personality that is in the Masonic Lodge, and another in this hierarchy ceremony, another participating in another Satanic ritual. It is very broken up. One of the reasons why it is not easy to answer your question is basically everything we understood about human behaviour and how to gauge or judge people is obsolete. The mind control, by creating programmed multiple personalities, has made all of our ways of judging people obsolete.
Within the Illuminati the supreme goal is to balance their good deeds with their bad deeds, they are dualists. They are Luciferians at the highest level. That's why your greatest philanthropist will very often be your highest ranking satanist. What they are trying to do with their philanthropy is self serving when you actually look at it. It's not as generous as it appears. They are trying to do good deeds and balance those with their bad deeds, they believe in balance in their religion. It's a gnostic luciferianism.

Wayne Morris:
I think it might be difficult for the people listening to understand how somebody could be in public doing good deeds and having a good public image, and at the same time having this very dark side. I don't know if you have read the recent Judith Spencer book, "Satan's High Priest". It really illustrates how that works very clearly. It's a true story about one particular satanic cult, a high priest, and his rise to that.

Fritz Springmeier:
No I haven't read the book, but I am glad that you brought that out to the listeners. The way that someone can begin to see the Illuminati is to start looking at how these people are above the wars and the rest of what we have to suffer. For instance Pierre Samuel Dupont, during the French Revolution, all kinds of people around Pierre lost their heads and yet, for some strange reason, Samuel Dupont managed to "keep his head" when so many hundreds of people were losing theirs to the guillotine. One person who was influential in protecting him was Necker's daughter, Madame Germaine Destael. She ran a cat-house, but anyway she was intimate friends with St. Simon and St. Simon's disciples were saying at that point in time in the early 1800's that the target date for the New World Order would be the year 2000.
Another example in history, and I brought this out in the Top 13 Illuminati Bloodlines book, is when the U.S. went to war right after Pearl Harbor, within a few days, President Roosevelt came out with a Presidential Decree which was a semi-secret amendment to the Trading with the Enemy Act, and it made it legal for certain people to trade with the enemy, if they were given permission by the American Secretary of the Treasury who at that time was Hans Morgenthale. I copied the paper work out of the Federal Code of Regulations. They actually have this Presidential Decree where if he wanted to exempt somebody, he could allow them to trade with the enemy. Who were the people that were given that privilege? Rockefellers and Onassis, both of them Illuminati kingpins. During WWII every ship that was a Greek merchant ship was sunk during the War by one side or the other. Something happened and essentially all of the Greek shippers lost their vessels. There was one Greek shipper, Aristotle Onassis, who didn't lose a single ship and his vessels sailed through all the war zones. None of the Allies or the Axis powers ever attacked his ships. For something like that to happen, you have to have full collaboration at the highest level. You see these kinds of things going like - Pierre Samuel Dupont, Aristotle Onassis. Then you are looking at somebody who is Illuminati. They sit above all these conflicts that they create for all the common people.

Wayne Morris:
This way of bypassing trading with the enemy regulations, how has this been utilized with regard to WWII or the Bolshevik revolution for that matter?

Fritz Springmeier:
In fact there is an entire book out - I think the title is "Trading with the Enemy", it came out in 1983 and answers your question. Rockefeller Standard Oil shipped gas and oil to Spain which then piped it directly to the Nazis. The Allies knew that Rockefeller was supplying the Germans. That prolonged the War a couple of year. But you don't hear about this by establishment historians. There was a lot of important trading during WWII was necessary to sustain the Nazi war machine.
And you mentioned the Bolshevik revolution. Again you will see there was a lot of finances sent from, as you are probably well aware and some listeners are aware, from Kuhn Laib (sp) and Company and some of these other llumaniti people, and that money was used by the Bolsheviks to finance the revolution. There were a lot of other agreements made at that time and things done to help them out. There is a lot going on behind the scenes.

Wayne Morris:
It seems like they are promoting a strategy of tension where they are funding both sides and basically profiting from the resultant conflicts that they are fomenting.

Fritz Springmeier:
One could go on and on. For instance Heinrich Mueller who was head of the Gestapo - you will notice that at one point he took an old Jewish family and he himself had to personally carry their suitcases to his own car and when he got them to the Swiss border, he carried their suitcases. The Swiss bodyguards by the way, were laughing seeing the head of Gestapo helping an old Jewish family escape Nazi Germany. When the listener out there starts seeing these kinds of things, now that you have heard me talk, you can begin to realize that there is a hidden level out there, way beyond what the common person is allowed to see at that Illuminati level. These are the people who are collaborating behind the scenes where you have Catholics and Protestants and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon leaders - you think these people are at each other's throats - but they are key Illuminati people who are secretly collaborating.

Wayne Morris:
In talking about the Illuminati, I think a number of people may have difficulty believing that there is a Unified Liberal Conspiracy to control the world. Even myself, up until recently, until I started researching into the mind control, I thought the Illuminati was a fictitious group. In doing your research about the Illuminati, what were some of your other sources of information besides the people on the inside that had escaped?

Fritz Springmeier:
My sources, besides my eye witnesses, were interviewing a number of honest law enforcement and private investigators - in fact some of these people are still ongoing friends of mine. Over the years I have studied thousands of books, and thousands of documents which has meant going to special libraries, such as the Genealogical Library at Salt Lake City. I have interviewed and worked with many therapists and I have taken off and travelled to sites where programming is done, where rituals are done, where crimes have been committed. For instance in Washington state, a number of hours from here, there is a full scale replica of Stonehenge. Below this replica of Stonehenge which sits on a hill, is a cemetery a number of feet away and Illuminati rituals are done at that cemetery. That's an example of a place that I have gone and looked at for myself.
I need to bring in another concept here that is important to research. It's not all simply just getting a lot of interviews and the facts because the raw facts aren't going to do it. When I was in college and I was taking counselling, the psychologist who was teaching the class gave some excellent advice. He said, "when you are listening to people or examining a situation, don't look at the details but look at the process. The details may throw you for a loop because people will lie, they will give contradictory information. Look at the process." That's a very good principle. What I have been doing is analyzing a lot of raw data, raw facts and interview information, and I have been putting together a coherent puzzle. That means you have to overlook a lot of disinformation.

Wayne Morris:
In the late seventies there was a certain amount of information about CIA mind control that came out to the public, and I would like to know what you think are the problems inherent in trying to prove the existence of mind control to a general audience through government documentation?

Fritz Springmeier:
The problems with trying to expose things through government documentation are one, the documentation has been destroyed or tampered with and to get the government involved in exposing these things, what you are basically doing is asking a bunch of criminals, that's what they are even thought they work in government positions, to expose themselves with paperwork. That's just not the way things work. When we think about the Nazis, they were trying to destroy all traces of their crimes. They tried, they didn't succeed. That gives me some hope that even though a great percentage of the proof of the mind control in terms of government documentation has been destroyed, I am still convinced that tons of documents still exist. But I think even better than those tons of documents are the living proof we have in the tens of thousands of identified living victims.
The other side to the problem of getting government documents is that then you have to have some way to broadcast that to the public at large and we have a controlled media, and unfortunately the media is very tight with the government. You can really question whether you would ever see our controlled media fully expose to the proper degree the people that need to be exposed.

Wayne Morris:
It seems highly unlikely that the mainstream media is going to be investigating this. It's more likely to be coming from independent investigation and independent publishers of this information.

Fritz Springmeier:
I would love to see the places where the records are kept broken into and these records exposed, but the only way I can see this happening would be if there was a revolution on the magnitude of what happened in Eastern Europe where Stasi records and things like this were exposed to the light of day.

Wayne Morris:
Do you think a government investigation into the mind control experiments, similar to what has happened with the Tuskegee syphilis and the radiation experiments would actually bring out information?

Fritz Springmeier:
I believe it would bring out information. That's true. However, for the government to investigate this is like asking the fox how much of a threat he is to chickens. The fox is going to tell us something, enough to satisfy us, but I am real leery about giving the government another chance to push some ulterior agenda. The bottom line is that a government investigation is going to cost us more tax dollars, and I think people sometimes forget that every time they send their government scurrying around doing something that it comes out of their pocketbook.

Wayne Morris:
Do you think there is any benefit though, to society as a whole, in terms of having a government investigation going on, and having the government at least admit they did do these kinds of experiments? Is there any benefit to the people as a whole in trying to expose this?

Fritz Springmeier:
As a whole? The way you ask your question is going to reflect the way I answer. No, it will not. The reason why I say this is that earlier on the US Congress had Rockefeller investigate the CIA. Rockefeller investigate the CIA!?! (Laughs) Of course his investigating committee came up with abuses, they have got to find something wrong, but the thing of it is that it makes Rockefeller look like a good fellow. "Oh look he's a crusader who is trying to expose the bad guys." They always throw in an ulterior agenda. If they are going to do something against themselves, they use it as another opportunity to work on some other agenda. If they expose A, B and C about mind control, then they are probably doing it in a way so they are misdirecting people's attention from their latest technology through an older model that they have discontinued, or something like that. They are going to work in some ulterior agenda that when it's all said and done, it has actually done a disservice.

Wayne Morris:
How do you think the information about mind control has been kept from public attention for so long?

Fritz Springmeier:
As we mentioned just a little bit earlier, we have a controlled media and in a number of my publications I have gone into detail and showed who is in control of the media, and how these people are Illuminati members or participating in their Illuminati fronts. I document how the Rockefellers, and the Rothschilds and the William Randolph Hearsts - Illuminati kingpins - control the media. I think it's appropriate a couple of anecdotes.
I was visiting one day with a Christian minister and he was asking me what I did since I worked full time exposing the mind control and helping victims of mind control, and exposing the New World Order's agenda. I was honest with him, and told him that and in the course of doing that I mentioned something about the controlled media and boy he hit the roof. He went ballistic on me because just prior to becoming a minister he had been an ABC reporter. He said, "there is no control over the media! I was allowed to write and have any stories that I wanted!" I said, "whoa, slow down, let me ask you some questions." When you were hired, your superior hired you and kept you on because he liked the way you thought and the way you wrote ... and likewise his superior liked the way he thought and the way he wrote ... and on and on down the line. If anybody had written or thought in ways that weren't the approved ways of thinking and writing you would have gotten in trouble, wouldn't you. He said "yes." I said, that's it ... when I work with victims of mind control they can't see that they are under programming. As long as they do exactly what the programming asks them to do, they don't know that they are in programming. The only time that they know that there is any programming there is if they step out and act against it. If you are running with the wind behind your back or if you are in a stream and you are floating down the stream, you don't notice the current. But when you try to swim upstream is when you really notice the power of the current. So if you as a reporter step out of what their expectations are, that's when you get clobbered and you realize there is a lot of heavy force behind going against the direction the way they want to go in. He said, "you're right." I said if you had written an article that had been contrary to the way your boss thought, you would have been in trouble, wouldn't you? He said, "yes, you are right, I see your point."
That's my point. People don't notice the control until you start bucking against that control and then you are going to find out how much control there is over our entire society.

Wayne Morris:
It seems that control in the newsrooms is almost at an unspoken level, and often for a lot of reporters it's an economic motivation as well. The stories that their editors do get accepted, the stories the editors don't like don't get accepted and the reporters don't get paid for it. They very quickly appreciate what their editors are going to accept and print.

Fritz Springmeier:
Exactly.

Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about the mind control that the Illuminati have used and the techniques therein. What is your understanding of the forms of mind control they have used?

Fritz Springmeier:
The phrase that I like to use is "Total Mind Control" because it totally controls the person - body, soul and spirit. And the common person out there has never really imagined that something so all-encompassing or so horrendous or so totally powerful even exists. The type of mind control the Illuminati use - I think some people think "oh, mind control - television - yeah - subliminals." No. I am talking about something that is 1000 or 10,000 times more powerful. This mind control is totally undetectable and it totally controls the person and it uses every known technique of controlling a person wrapped up in a sophisticated group package. That's one of the important things that a lot of people have not emphasized - that it's not one technique, but what makes this total mind control of the Illuminati so powerful is that it's a sophisticated group package incorporating all of the known techniques of control. All of these methods have been carefully interwoven. When you listen to someone from an intelligence agency, occasionally they have talked similar to this, where they will say, "we tried such and such a technique but it only worked in 70% of the cases so we couldn't use it ... and we tried this technique and it only worked part of the time." But what they are not telling you is that if you take a method that works only 70% of the time and match that to another technique that works 60% of the time, and another technique that works 50% of the time and you have 100 techniques wrapped up together like that, you make a package deal that totally locks the victim in to the control.

Wayne Morris:
Can you talk about some of these techniques individually and how they were used as a group package?

Fritz Springmeier:
When I started out to describe to people what was going on, I had files and files. I had about 150 files of different techniques. I was thinking to myself, well I can't talk about 150 techniques, that's too overwhelming for people. I thought and realize that all of these techniques broke down into 12 sciences. One of the sciences is the science of trauma and torture. Others is how to use applied drugs to control a person; their ability to use mental states such as hypnosis, dissociation, the trance states; their skill at deceiving people and deceiving the victim themselves. One needs to understand that the victims of the Illuminati mind control do not even know themselves that they are under control. So there is a lot of skill in using fiction and deceit and fronts and covers. There is a science of using spiritual things to control a person. In fact actually that is perhaps one of the major, if not 'the major' method of controlling a person.
There is a science of using spiritual things to control a person. In fact actually that is perhaps one of the major, if not the major method of controlling a person. One of the things that's not political popular today for people today in science to admit is that mankind has a spiritual side to them, but humans do have a spiritual side to them and the Illuminati understand how to spiritually control someone. Their understanding of that has boggled my mind. They have only allowed the common people including the Christian people - the crumbs so to speak - even our ministers have only been given the crumbs on how to develop a person spiritually.

Wayne Morris:
And how do you feel they have developed this and gained this knowledge?

Fritz Springmeier:
A lot of this began back in the Sleep Temples of the Egyptians. We go back to your Egyptian priesthood and the Mystery religions - they were already learning at that time how to use electric shock - they used electric eels and other things to electrically shock people. They had already started to learn the use of drugs and herbs to create altered states and to control people. These were secrets though that were very closely guarded by these Illuminati families and their Mystery religion priesthood. But they continued to develop these over the centuries. Another example of a closely guarded secret was the ability to do cranial manipulation. During the Middle Ages and even centuries prior to that, the oligarchical families that controlled the common people had specialists that did torture for the kings, and they kept their secrets about torturing to themselves. One of the things they developed was the ability to do cranial manipulation. You have to be very careful when you start moving the bones of the skull. A lot of people don't realize that the skull is not a solid bone, but it has sutures between the different parts of it, and you can do very subtle manipulations and move those skull bones. In fact today there is something called cranial osteopathy. These osteopaths are very skilled in using their fingers. That developed from the family of bone-setters who tied back into the occult who had learned the secret occult skills of manipulation.

Wayne Morris:
What has effect has this had in terms of the mind control - the cranial manipulation?

Fritz Springmeier:
Cranial manipulation has been kept an occult secret in occult bloodlines for centuries. And it can be used for good, to heal people. It can be used to change the way the face looks to improve the face, or it can be used for evil, to torture someone or to control their mind. By manipulating the skull you can actually change the way the person thinks to make them more dissociative, or more compliant, or develop their thinking in other ways.

Wayne Morris:
Can you explain how they would start using these techniques, and generally at what age they would start?

Fritz Springmeier:
When a child is conceived, a lot of them - their very birth has been an idea from the start. Somebody who is in the Illuminati conceiving a child in an occult ritual with a woman. It gets very involved as to how they hide their lineages. Let's put it this way. Not everybody born to mothers are actually the biological children of that mother. There is a lot of switching done at hospitals and so forth. The child's birth has been planned. While the child is in the fetus, they already begin certain things to test the fetus' mental abilities and to traumatize that fetus so it will be more dissociated.

Wayne Morris:
How would they do that?

Fritz Springmeier:
A fetus does not like to be poked, does not like substances that taste bad. If a mother eats a lot of sugar they have shown by watching the fetus that these unborn children like the taste of sugar as it diffuses into what the child is getting from the mother. So if you combine a lot of these things that are horrific. If you have a lot of loud noises - and the father is screaming at the mother and throwing her around and abusing the mother, making the mother very upset. Then you've got loud music, rock and roll, or screaming or something. You have also given the mother something to eat that tasted really bad to the fetus and you can do a number of things that are going to hit that little unborn child at the same time. It's going to be overwhelmed, and it's going to develop its ability to dissociate.

Wayne Morris:
To your awareness, has electricity been used in this regard?

Fritz Springmeier:
Not so much in the traumatization of the fetus. They use that after the child is born. They oftentimes will have a premature birth. It happens in many different ways, but one of the methods they like to use is to have a premature birth because then the child can be traumatized naturally. There are a whole bunch of natural traumas that go along with being premature. Your skin is very sensitive, you get catheters up your behind, and so forth. They want the traumatization to begin very early on because they want somebody who can trance out and dissociate from the pain. You are probably familiar with the Indian fakirs - the holy men in Indian who can walk on coals and stick pins in themselves and sleep on beds of nails. How does it happen? Because they are able to dissociate and go into a trance state, an altered state. The Illuminati want to create individuals who are able to dissociate very well, because that is part of the requirement to have the ability to have a multiple personality.

Wayne Morris:
And that is the purpose of the traumatization - is to create that dissociation?

Fritz Springmeier:
That's one of the purposes.

Wayne Morris:
What is the importance of dissociation within the total mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:
It's extremely important. You will hear a lot in recent times about electronic mind control, and that's being used to divert people away from the more important issue of multiple personality disorder or DID. The ability to create multiple personalities that are programmed is extremely important. It's why they have the ability to be secret, it's why they are able to do so much in secret. The electronic mind control - throwing mental ideas into somebody's brain which are foreign is not that much of a threat. I have worked with quite a few victims of electronic mind control and the majority, if not all of them, are able to recognize that something is being beamed into their heads that is foreign. But when you are dissociated and you have amnesia between yourself and other parts of your mind, you don't know what you yourself in your entirety are all about. For instance I had a Christian minister who spent some time trying to deprogram - he has come and visited here to work on his programming. Here you have a Christian minister who, horrors of horrors, discovers that he has a dissociated part of his mind which has been functioning within the Illuminati and these other parts of his mind are satanic. Imagine being a man of God and finding out that you have parts of yourself that sacrifice people ... (laughs). That's why this ability to dissociate into multiple personalities is such a dangerous ability.

Wayne Morris:
Maybe you can talk about the nature of dissociation and how that is used for controlling somebody and also, as you mentioned, being not aware of the different identities that are being used for other purposes ...

Fritz Springmeier:
People are familiar with dissociation and how the mind has the ability to function on several tracks. For instance, if you are at a party and engrossed in a conversation with somebody and you are focused on what they are saying, and all of a sudden somebody across the room says your name, and your mind immediately switches and goes "oh they are calling me over there", well that's one evidence, and there are other ways to realize that the mind is not one monolithic entity but it is broken up into components. While you were engaged in that conversation with somebody, there was one part of your mind which was still listening to other things. It was a dissociated part of the conscious mind; in other words, it was dissociated from the conscious. You weren't conscious of that part of your mind that was listening to the rest of the conversation but it was.
Hypnosis, trance and dissociation are just different aspects of the same thing. The Illuminati have learned over the centuries how to put people in different mental states and the information is learned in the different states. To access that information best, you need to go back to that particular state. People realize what I am saying because when you get into a particular situation that's reminiscent of a previous experience, that's when your memory is best triggered. They go a lot further than just using natural dissociation. They have learned how to create amnesia walls within the mind and basically what they are doing to the mind is the same as what we do to computers. In order to make computers functional they had to figure out some way to section off part of the computer's memory so the user could not access that memory. It had to nest that memory. You will notice that when you reboot your computer, the computer reboots itself with memory that you weren't able to access. That memory was dissociated - in human terms I guess you could say there is an amnesia wall there.
They know how to build walls in the mind to mentally section off the mind - and they do this through trauma. If you get a severe enough trauma what the mind will do in order to continue functioning is dissociate that trauma with an amnesia wall. Let's say you were in war and your best friend had just gotten blown to smithereens by artillery ... his guts are lying out. Your mind may build amnesia walls around this event and you may not be able to remember it. So the worse the trauma, the better the amnesia wall.
The Illuminati take a small child about two years old, and they begin traumatizing it with the worst traumas that are imaginable so that they can create these amnesia walls. They find these dissociated pieces of the mind which are just like in a sense floppy disks, then they put in their programming to the dissociated parts of the mind as to what they want that part to become. Some of these parts they make into personalities and they create MPD, DID and then while they are creating these multiple personalities, they are programming them to be exactly what they want them to be.

Wayne Morris:
Before we get into what kinds of things they are used for, maybe we can just go back and talk about how a person is conditioned to be a total mind control slave, and pick it up when the child is born. What happens there in terms of the conditioning.

Fritz Springmeier:
The programmers like to say "this child is a piece of clay", and they view themselves as the potter's wheel, of course. They are very skilled in knowing how to take a child and work with that child's mind to create what they want. We could talk all day about this. One of the aspects we haven't gotten into yet is their ability to go in and identify - they use EEG's - backtracking and stepping outside of the Illuminati for a second ... You've got researchers like Hans Eisneck, who happened to have been born in Germany and other researchers too who studied how your average _______ potentials - these are brainwaves - can be monitored and can be used to see what type of thinking that brain is capable of. You can use EEG's to determine personality and IQ. They have correlated their ability to study the human brain with EEG's to John Gittinger's PAS tests. When a child is born they begin testing its brain to see what is this person's personality, what type of thinking is this person capable of, what type of career should be plan out for this person. So they take the natural bent of the mind, the natural capabilities of the mind and they work with that. Likewise when they are doing the traumatization and they are splitting the mind, they work with the child's creativity and what those pieces of the mind think.

Wayne Morris:
Typically at what age do these tests start - the EEG's and the Personality Assessment Surveys ...

Fritz Springmeier:
They do some of it while the child is still a fetus, and after its born they start neonatal behavioral assessment skills, the Bailey Scales and other tests, and within a short time, perhaps by 18 months, they will be doing EEG's and determining what they want to do. Once they determine what kind of life they want to structure for this person, they begin the mind control to structure the person for that career. This is why people like myself who have a natural intelligence that has never been connected to any of these bloodlines, we have such a hard time out there in the competition because the Illuminati can take a particular child and manipulate things from behind the scenes and open all the right doors for this person, and they can get them the grants and the schooling and everything they need and adding impetus to this person's career is the mind control that is steering them in that direction too. The end product is you end up with somebody who is an engineer or a lawyer or a politician who is very highly qualified for what they are doing.

Wayne Morris:
Once they have controlled somebody, what kinds of things would they be used to do for the Illuminati?

Fritz Springmeier:
This has not been brought out very well by other people and maybe it's just simply because they are not aware of it, but the mind control is not just to create somebody who is a sexual slave, but it's to infiltrate and control society across the board. Understand that if you are going to control something like establishment medicine - you have to have your people in key positions because the weakest link the chain is going to break. You can't have any weak links. They salt their people throughout society in general, from the gutter to the castles. An example of one group of people that they have created for modern society are stalkers. In my recent book, Deeper Insights Into the Illuminati Formula, I go into how they create stalkers and why they create stalkers.
Let's say you are trying to control medicine because the establishment medical system brings them in lots of money and the medical establishment is very powerful, you have to have control of the entire spectrum of things - the hospitals, what kind of health care is going to be available, the type of training these doctors are going to get, they have created secret strike forces like the CCHI and the NCHF that keep people in line. All of this requires mind control slaves being salted in throughout the entire system. If you have one weak link - for instance if you have one person who is practising alternative medicine and you don't control the judicial system - you are not going to be able to convict, eg. this homeopathic doctor if you don't control the judicial system. You have to have this vast secret apparatus, and until people understand the mind control, they can't understand how there could possibly be the type of control that they have.

Wayne Morris:
In order to understand how they are able to control these people that they have put in key positions in society, we do have to talk more about the techniques of mind control, and maybe we can go into that now, of how they are able to effect control over these people. For example, the trauma.

Fritz Springmeier:
The trauma would be used for a whole number of reasons, but at the very basic level when you traumatize somebody to the point where they almost die, or actually to be more specific they actually do "kill" these people but they know exactly how many seconds they can allow them to be killed and still bring them back to life. They manipulate near-death experiences, they have that down to a science. That was the major reason that you had the major concentration camp experiments by Mengele where people were tortured. He belonged to an Illuminati bloodline and was doing Illuminati research for mind control purposes, he did a lot of research on twins. They found out exactly how much trauma you could give different people before you killed them. What that trauma does is it puts the brain back into a survival mode and now I have to get into explaining that the popular concept of the brain being one monolithic brain is real deceptive.
It has been kept very secret but the human brain is actually seven brains. The first brain of the human mind - the medullah and the pons - is called the Reptilian Brain because it thinks like a reptilian. If you are always traumatizing a person, you keep them in their reptilian thinking or their survival based thinking. Survival based thinking has certain characteristics. At the very basic level, the trauma can be used to keep somebody within their survival based thinking. It also creates fear and there is a whole series that spiritually happen to a person when they get caught up in fear.
If you think in terms of blackmail, the listener may remember when he was a child and somebody grabbed your arm and twisted it and said "say uncle" and of course your arm hurt, and you gave in. That's a very simple type of mind control. The trauma and the torture can be used in a very simple way - if you don't comply it is going to hurt. Men who are slaves are electroshocked in their genitals. It is very painful. That's a very simple way of bringing someone in line. Then of course there are ways the trauma is used to split the mind, fracture them into thousands of pieces, create multiple personality disorder. That's one of the techniques.

Wayne Morris:
Just to stay on the topic of trauma, what is the importance of maintaining that trauma in terms of keeping the conditioning intact and keeping the state of dissociation intact?

Fritz Springmeier:
They want to maintain a high level of trance and dissociative behaviour in the victim, so they like to continue traumatizing the person. As I brought out earlier, there is more involved than just keeping the dissociative level high. Your also trying to maintain the person to stay in the reptilian, survival based thinking; trying to keep them having a spirit of fear controlling their lives, so they don't slack off. They secretly train the parents of the children who are being programmed on how to abuse their children so they keep their children very dissociative. Not only that, if the children are going to some established religious institute, eg. Catholic church, Episcopalian church, their priests, their clergymen have been trained in how to abuse the children. This is why you have such a big modern day problem within the Catholic church. So many of the priests abusing children and the lawsuits brought against this church, and some people have said they think it is going to financially bankrupt the church - the reason why so much of this is going on is for purposes of mind control.

Wayne Morris:
Have these priests and clergymen been coerced to participate in this, or are they part of these Illuminati families? What is their role?

Fritz Springmeier:
There are a lot of different reasons why someone is a pedophile. One of the problems within the Catholic church is that there haven't been normal outlets for sexual activity provided for priests and nuns, and then they are given these subversive ways to release their sexuality. Some of them are actually secret satanists and this is part of the reward they receive from a secret coven. There are various reasons as to why - some just go along because that's what everybody else is doing and it is allowed until people put their foot down and say we are not going to tolerate this. I can talk about a number of cases where people did put their foot down and say we are not going to tolerate this abuse of our child by the clergy, and the hierarchy that should have penalized this person simply promoted them and sent them to some other part of the country. Why they do it? God knows why each person has become an abuser.

Wayne Morris:
Can you explain how the dissociation has been used in terms of programming and the structure of that programming?

Fritz Springmeier:
The victim of the mind control has had their mind split into many personalities, actually far more personalities than what the people in the therapeutic community generally realize. Cisco who I brought out of the Illuminati has very standard programming in many ways, although she has unique features to her system of personalities. She had a very standard grid of 13x13x13 alter personalities. Each one of those personalities has been given a separate history, separate personality which has its own likes and dislikes. What they did was turn what was one person into a whole city of people and the only way the mind of the slave can function is if it relies upon the master to give it stability. Imagine if your mind was a whole series of competing persons, each with their own ideas, likes, dislikes. The only way to bring some order out of the chaos would be to have some controlling entity ordering that chaos. Some of the slaves have reached the point of becoming aware that they are multiples and on the deeper levels they realize that they need the mind control for their minds not to break down into total craziness. Another way of looking at it is - what the Illuminati are doing is creating controlled insanity for these victims of the mind control to endure the horrific trauma that's given to them, they have to isolate their memories of that trauma and the parts of the mind that have to pick up some of that trauma - some of those parts, in essence, I hate to use the word "crazy", but they are taking the garbage that's happening and the mind is shuffling and isolating it. If those walls of dissociation break down, then the other parts of the mind are going to have to deal with a lot of garbage.

Wayne Morris:
Why do you think they needed so many identities to be in place?

Fritz Springmeier:
If you are going to invest the time to create a robot, you are going to incorporate as many capabilities as possible and you want to compartmentalize so everything is secret. One of the reasons why intelligence agencies function so well - eg. CIA - is that they compartmentalize everything. You only "know" on a regional basis. They do the same with these people's minds. A slave may function on many different levels. He's got his front - they create the best front possible - his or her everyday life - but then they may want to use that person for drug smuggling, money laundering, carrying messages, performing satanic rituals, producing porn movies, assassinating somebody, spying on somebody - and then you've got internal jobs too. Going back to what I said earlier, remembering how the mind has been fractured into many dissociated pieces, and essentially a whole city of people has been made out of those pieces. In order for that city of people to function, you have to have different jobs. You will have some of the older personalities taking care of baby personalities internally in the person's mind - you have functions - gatekeepers, hierarchy alters that are controlling other alters - a hierarchy of personalities. That's a whole science in itself - how to structure dissociated parts of the mind.

Wayne Morris:
You mentioned the one structure, 13x13x13 grid. Are there other structures used that you are aware of?

Fritz Springmeier:
There are many different structures. It all depends on the whim and fancy of the programmer as he shatters the victim's mind, he can reassemble that mind however he wants to. He can use a sphere - they create systems within systems too. A common system within a system is the cabalistic tree of life.

Wayne Morris:
Do you see similarities in the survivors that you have been working with in terms of the structures?

Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yes. That's one of the things - you can have a therapist in one state, and they will not have know anything about MPD or DID and they will start working with the victim and call another therapist for help and taking notes. The victim will say, "I drew these pictures. I don't know what they mean." "I am fascinated with Star Trek (or the Wizard of Oz) (Mickey Mouse)". The therapist will call another therapist and ask what they make of this. If this other therapist is experienced, they may say "oh hey - I've got somebody who is just like that." All across the country, there are therapists and then people like myself who is a minister working with these people who are running into the same patterns time and time again, the same structures. Like I was saying, working with people who were in the Illuminati, working with people that did the programming itself, is really helping my learning curve too in terms of the structures that are built in.
Another common structure you will see is a lot of mirror imaging, that's a more of a technique than a structure.

Wayne Morris:
What do you mean by that? The mirroring of an alter?

Fritz Springmeier:
Mirroring of all kinds of things. That's part of the technique of deceit.

Wayne Morris:
That's the purpose of using this mirroring, for example if a therapist came across one alter, dealt with, there may have been a mirror of that ...

Fritz Springmeier:
A lot of the therapists think they are dealing with a particular personality but they are dealing with its mirror image. The systems are programmed, created so that if somebody starts working with them there are all these defensive mechanisms that are triggered. One of the defensive mechanisms is to have mirror image alters take the place of who the therapist is trying to work with. So the therapist thinks they have done something but they have actually just played games. Mirror images of things within the programming itself so that when one particular personality tries to work on their mind's programming, the mind is so confusing about what they still internally - that they can't figure out their own mind.
The best manager is somebody who doesn't have to spend a lot of time giving instructions to a person. If you are a slave master and you have to be constantly telling that slave what to do, and constantly correcting it, and making sure it's doing its job, you become a slave to the slave.
What you want to do is create a human robot which will be self-directed and self-correcting so they create hierarchies of alters within the person and one of the things they do is create alter personalities within the person's mind who think they are the programmer themself.
So, Ewen Cameron who was a programmer - his victim would have personalities within them that would think they are Ewen Cameron. Therefore they would carry out the abuse of other personalities as they would perceive Ewen Cameron would do it. That's one use of mirrors. Another use of mirrors is if you are teaming two slaves together, let's say you and are teamed. I would have personalities in me that think they are you and you would have personalities created in you that think they are me and it would further the binding process.

Wayne Morris:
Generally speaking, with people who have this kind of mind control, how many personalities are you talking about?

Fritz Springmeier:
A lot. Cisco has 30,000 standard alters and then there are lots of other dissociated pieces too. That would not be abnormal. The small part of the therapeutic community that's trying to address DID generally work with a few front personalities. There are number of books out there written by people with MPD where the therapist came in and worked with five or six front personalities. The Illuminati step back and allow them to integrate some front personalities and the person is told by the therapist "you are now integrated, you're fine" and they left therapy, and everybody is happy. The victim thinks they are free of their MPD, the therapist has made a lot of money and gotten famous over some book they have written, and the Illuminati is happy because these are just front alters that have been stabilized. The system of alters are far more complex than people realize.

Wayne Morris:
What are the dangers involved in dealing with therapy with a mind control victim, particularly when a therapist may be unaware of the techniques and structures of mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:
I have to caution people that some of the best minds of the 20th century - we have hundreds, if not thousands, of the best minds who have spent many, many years figuring out how to build these mechanisms into the mind slaves to protect the programming. In a sense what it is like - imagine you are going in to try and hack a computer - imagine a system that is set up so that if someone is not an approved user comes into the room and looks at the computer, the computer shuts down, the computer explodes. That's really what you are looking at in trying to work with a mind control victim - they have a lot of suicide programming so that if the front alters, the personalities that hold the body day in and day out - if they were ever to find out they were in mind control, or that they were a multiple personality, they would commit suicide. You have all kinds of defensive programs. Not only is the computer programmed to explode if you walk into the room, but if you touch the keyboard as an unauthorized user, again the computer is programmed to explode. Every step of the way there are backup programs to deceive, to destroy. It is not easy. It is something the novice does not want to get into. It's something that takes a lot of time and patience and skill, and a lot of love for the victims too. One has to really abhor what is going on to have the motivation that it takes to work with such a complex problem.

Wayne Morris:
What would you recommend for therapists wanting to know more about how this is done, and how they can help heal the victims?

Fritz Springmeier:
I strongly recommend our three books - I co-authored these 3 books with Cisco Wheeler. The one I already mentioned, "The Illuminati Formula Used to Create a Total Mind Controlled Slave". The sequel to that which is 620 pages, "Deeper Insights into the Illuminati Formula", part 1 is how the control comes about and part 2 is how the help comes about. We've got a lot of good information in there laying the foundation as to what's happened, and how to begin to unravel what has happened.

Wayne Morris:
In terms of your own work, how much success have you had in working with victims of mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:
The problem that the mind control presents is overwhelming, and there are countless therapeutic issues, so there is no end to the different issues that can be worked on. Cisco and I have freely given of our time to help any victim of mind control in whatever way we could. The degree of therapeutic success depends on a number of things. One, it depends upon the situation the victim puts themselves in. If they are willing to extract themselves from their everyday life and go somewhere where it is safe, they are going to do a lot more - work more therapeutic issues, because the mind of a mind controlled slave is not going to let its guard down as long as it's not safe. This gets back into understanding how the reptilian mind and the survival based thinking can override other areas of the mind. When you become deathly frightened for your life, your survival instincts take precedence over the other parts of your brain. If you have been traumatized your entire life, your survival based thinking is your primary method of thinking and it doesn't take much to throw you into the fear based survival based thinking. So the first criteria for doing successful work with a mind control victim is to get them someplace safe. You could say that 99.9% of the victims of mind control have never been given that. Therapists do not set things up for survivors or victims of mind control to be in any safe situation. When I say safe, I mean they have to be safe 24 hours a day.
Cisco and I have been able to work with victims to the degree the situation allowed. There is no end to the work we could do if the right set-up presented itself. This is why I was hoping to create a deprogramming centre. There was a man who was CIA who was very horrified at what the government intelligence agencies had been doing to people, and I have a friend whom this CIA man knew who also works at providing therapy for mind control victims. This CIA man wrote into his will to give a number of millions of dollars to my clients for the purpose of doing therapy work with mind control victims. And then my friend in turn was going to give me a couple of million dollars so I could start a deprogramming centre. This man's will when he died, was in the Oklahoma Federal Building, and the only copy of the will that we know about was in there. So I was rather upset when the building exploded, because that short-circuited our plans to build a couple of deprogramming centres. Short of building some place that is safe and that is staffed with competent people, it is extremely difficult to accomplish much.
Even when I have accomplished positive therapy with a victim, all that it takes for the other side to do is physically grab them and reprogram them. This is what has happened for me over the past years in terms of trying to help victims, and as a warning to the public and the therapeutic community at large, at this point not a whole lot has really been accomplished to thwart the mind control.

Wayne Morris:
Now in the optimal situation, to what degree have you been able to free the victims of the control?

Fritz Springmeier:
Given the optimal situation where we have someone who is safe, we can take down the mind control. We can do some serious re-structuring and make some really serious headway in helping a person. We can do some significant spiritual work with them. There can be some integrating work begun. There are all kinds of things that can happen. On the flip side of it, is the work ever finished? I don't think it is, because the damage that has been done is so extensive, and you never know as a therapist that you have succeeded in finding every dissociated fragment of the mind. Remember there are thousands of fragments of the mind because the traumatization is so prolonged over so many years, and is so horrific, that you can never be sure that you have gotten all of the dissociated pieces, and each of those dissociated pieces is probably going to have programming attached to it.

Wayne Morris:
What is your sense of how many people have been affected by this?

Fritz Springmeier:
A very conservative estimate - I shouldn't even say estimate because I have computed it from about seven different angles - a conservative figure is 2 million Americans have been programmed with trauma based total mind control.

Wayne Morris:
And that's just in the USA?

Fritz Springmeier:
Yes.

Wayne Morris:
And is it your sense that this is going on world-wide?

Fritz Springmeier:
Oh indeed yes, it is. More with your primary political powers. You've got programming going on in Europe, Russia, the U.S.A. - those are your primary areas of programming but in other places too.

Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about some of the other techniques now of mind control. How has electricity played a role?

Fritz Springmeier:
Electric shock has been a standard part of the abuse, and it serves as a form of trauma. And stun guns are a standard item to keep the slaves in line and also to erase their memories. They might use perhaps a 120,000 DC volt stun gun to erase and compartmentalize fragments, memories of a slave who has just been used. When you shock a person, it destroys the short-term memory. It fragments it, 24 hours either way of the event. They can also use the shock treatments like Ewen Cameron to splinter the mind so that's electro-shock. Elecricity has been used in terms of implements or devices that have been implanted into people and also used in equipment that will throw thoughts into a peron's mind. You have microwave towers going up vectoring in ELF waves into people's minds. So electricity is being used in a lot of high tech ways, or electromagnetic waves are being used in a lot of high techn ways ...
They have different machines - EDOM electronic dissolution of memory where they wipe out your memory; harmonic machines that are used which some of your speakers have probably talked about - these machines can be used for the deprogramming work too. Electricity is also used in the flip way in that since the human brain gives off frequencies, they go in and scan a person's personal frequencies they are giving off. There is a prime freq - which is the primary frequency a person gives off and that can be used to identify them from a distance. They know the different frequencies that the brain uses. Coming at it from a different angle, if you think of the brain when it creates a particular thought, it gives off particular frequencies. They simply created particular thoughts within a person and monitored electrical impulses along with that thought, fed that into computers. I am simplifying what they did - but basically that's what they have done to decode being able to read what their brain is thinking. If you monitor the frequencies that are being given off by a person, then you can monitor what their thoughts are. So not only can you throw particular thoughts into people's heads, but they can monitor their thoughts too.A lot of the monitoring and instilling of thoughts, etc. are being done with implants.

Wayne Morris:
Can we just go back to electroshock. You mentioned that it is used to erase memories perhaps of the identity of the people who are doing the programming. But don't they run the risk of erasing the programming itself? How do they deal with that?

Fritz Springmeier:
This gets back into understanding how the programming is put in, and the level at which it is put in. Remember we talked about dissociated states? The primary programming that is put in is put in at a comatose level. There are different levels that you can program somebody to - if you start out with an adult, for instance, the CIA's nomenclature is mind control Level 5. Somebody who has been given mind control to the 5th level generally has some cover story like for Roseanne Barr - she had an automobile accident apparently as a teenager. They take these people in and they are taken down to a comatose level where their bodies are comatose for quite a long period of time, and the programming is put in at an extremely deep level. At a level where your mind is regulating your heartbeat. The programming is put in and it is nested in at an extremely deep level. When they destroy short-term memory with electroshocking, that's not even coming close to the deep programs - that is just affecting the short-term memory.

Wayne Morris:
Have they deliberately regulated the amount of electricity in terms of achieving a desired effect?

Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yeah. Everything is extremely scientific. This is why they had to do a lot of the horrific testing during WWII in the concentration camps. You just don't traumatize a person indiscriminately or you will kill them. You have to know what you are doing. They have doctors and heart monitoring equipment. The fundamental programming is done in hospital settings, or hospital-type settings. That's why a lot of the VA hospitals here in the USA - actually all of the VA hospitals - have been used for programming. A lot of the other civilian hospitals have also had particular wards set up where they were able to do programming. They are monitoring heartbeat, they know just how far to push them. When they start going into a near-death experience they know exactly when they can electroshock them to bring them back to life, etc. It is very skilled. They have to be very skilled in the drugs they use, how and when they administer them, what they do when the person is under drugs. What they do is not haphazard.

Wayne Morris:
So a lot of experimentation has gone into refining these techniques?

Fritz Springmeier:
Yes. Exactly.

Wayne Morris:
Can you tell us if you know anything about the development of brain implant technology and that has been used for mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:
There are six different types of implants. Audio implants that are used to allow the victim to hear something. Body manipulation implants that are put in to manipulate the body in some way, perhaps to release a hormone or to keep them from getting pregnant or to torture them, or something like that. Then you have a visual holographic implant which will give a holographic image to the person. You have implants that are mimics or brain link implants that if I want to directly download something to the brain, those are very secret implants. The implants are not used across the board with all mind controlled slaves. There are select groups that are receiving the implants and like the mimics, implants are only going to a select group. Then you've got your torture and muscle stimulating implants. Then the one everybody hears about - the tracking and ID implants - that everybody is so concerned about. Those are the implants that were given to a lot of American soldiers in Desert Storm. They were told they needed implants so that the global positioning system could keep track of them so they wouldn't get lost in the desert.

Wayne Morris:
I am curious about the actual implants themselves in terms of how they are implanted and approximately the size through the development of the technology?

Fritz Springmeier:
The development has gotten really high tech. You have several types of development here that need to be brought out. One, that's called "nanobots" - nanotechnology which are tiny little robots that range from 10-1/1000 billionth of a meter. The word "nano" means billionth - we are talking extremely microscopic robots here that are able to replicate themselves. Molecular size robots. Possibly the listeners have heard of the Scanning Tunnelling microscope? There are different names for it, but it is a little device that can actually see a single atom, and actually pick up atoms and move them. That's used to develop these nanobots which are robots that can self replicate. You have fibre optics that have been developed and you will have some victims that if they get rid of their fibre optics - the fibre optic that is stuck into the victim often looks like a hair.

Wayne Morris:
What typically are these fibre optic implants used for?

Fritz Springmeier:
Good question. I wish I really knew the answer for that. Fibre optic glass will carry signals, so in broad I can say the implants are being used to transmit signals, I know that much. But I don't know all the ins and outs of what kinds of signals are being sent. I have one victim of mind control who had been sitting in a restaurant - it is sort of analgous to a blowgun where they have hit her with something that looks just like a little hair and the fibre optic filament embeds itself in her skin. While she is sitting there eating, they have shot this filament into her. Fortunately she noticed they had done this, and pulled it out. I had female victims who had fibre optics that was disguised as hair that were put on their bodies. I don't know the full role of the fibre optics but I know it is involved in communications. One of the more dangerous developments are your organic bioprocessors. These are molecular computers that are made up of DNA material. You've got DNA templates and you can also have carbon chains that are used. What they do is - with this biomaterial that is made into a mini-computer, they will link that to a virus and viruses oftentimes have a particular area of the body they like to migrate to. For instance a neurotropic virus will migrate to the nervous system or a dermatropic virus will migrate to the skin, pneuomtropic virus will go to the lungs. They attack their little organic viral processor to this virus. How do you get a virus into a person? There are a dozen different ways, it is easy to get a virus into a victim's/host's body. So once these viruses migrate to that area of the body they prefer, you've got a tiny little implant that is then doing whatever function it is programmed to do. These are extremely difficult to locate.
I have noticed in victims that have the virus implants that there will be a sort of central control implant a lot of times put in the bottom base of the neck. The central command implant will be receiving external signals and then will in turn monitor the body suit of implants. Some of the victims of these implants seem to have gotten some relief from being able to kill the viruses. There are some alternative medical methods that might be suggested to the victims that could take out these bio processors.

Wayne Morris:
For some of the larger implants, have victims been able to locate and remove these kinds of implants somehow?

Fritz Springmeier:
Yes. There have been a number of victims that have been identified - have been able to take xrays, have been able to get other types of scanning mechanisms. There were three victims of electronic mind control that managed to, as a group, get into an Anacoic Chamber and get results when their signals were pinpointed as to source. They had to smuggle the paperwork out from the lab in their bras because the lab technicians were afraid of getting into trouble. Different victims of electronic mind control have managed to get some proof or have actually pulled some of it out. There are some doctors that actually have some of the implants. There are a few clean surgeons that are willing to help victims. I might mention the word Syntel here ... that's an important word for people to be familiar with in understanding implants. Syntel is something that has been discussed by our government repeatedly in some of their conferences. You will hear the military in some of their semi-secret conferences discussing Syntel. That's short for synthetic telepathy which means sending to victims voices and thoughts - so these victims of Syntel are people who are receiving voices and thoughts electronically.

Wayne Morris:
That seems to be able to be used in a couple of different ways in terms of control, but also in terms of the situation with people claiming they are hearing voices who are often labelled schizophrenic or psychotic ... it seems to be a way of discrediting these people.

Fritz Springmeier:
Something that was developed and used during the space program which is called biomedical telemetry - these are transmitters and receivers located at the base of the skull which record the body functions and the brain waves, and send it back to some computer somewhere. In fact in working with victims of electronic mind control I can say with certainty that is what is being done is that there are computers that are programmed with artificial intelligence that are their handlers. Rather than having a human handler day in and out, three shifts of human handlers controlling the victim of electronic mind control, they have computers with A.I. Then if the victim does something that throws the computer, the computer will signal a human to come and get involved. It's been kind of interesting, the stories that victims have told me about how they outsmarted the computers that were trying to handle them.

Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about, and you have mentioned the name, Josef Mengele. What role did Josef Mengele play in developing mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:
He is like the father of modern programming. Prior to Josef Mengele, the Illuminati had created MPD, but the training of those personalities had been non-scientific. Mengele worked a lot with twins, understanding trauma and how to use trauma. If somebody is about to die and they are rescued by their programmer, they trauma-bond with that programmer. He learned how to trauma-bond his victims to him. A lot of victims of mind control in Israel and other parts of the world still refer to him as "Papa", they love him. And if the programmer knows what he's doing, he can totally trauma-bond that victim to him to where they love the programmer.

Wayne Morris:
It's like the Stockholm Syndrome ...

Fritz Springmeier:
He was taking programming into the world of science. In January 1945, when it was very clear that the Nazis were going to lose, the Illuminati smuggled him out into the West where he continued doing programming. I have worked with a number of his mind control victims. One of his victims, a lady here in this area, was actually in a concentration camp with Mengele; as a child was experimented on and watched those horrors and had mind control done in the concentration camps. And then she was smuggled via the Ratline actually through your country, Canada, came through the Catholic Church collaborators, brought her through Quebec and then to Portland. And Josef Mengele continued his mind control here in the States.

Wayne Morris:
Was Mengele involved in mind control experiments previous to WWII?

Fritz Springmeier:
I don't believe so. He was in the Illuminati. His family is Illuminati, but I don't have any knowledge of him doing it prior to the War. Of course I don't know the whole story there. But there was some reason as to why he was chosen for the position that he received. There may be more to the story than I know.

Wayne Morris:
It appears that a lot of experimentation was done on the victims of the Holocaust. You have mentioned trauma experiments. What other kinds of experiments were done as they relate to mind control technology?

Fritz Springmeier:
One of the things that Mengele was doing, and his friend Ewen Cameron continued this, was experimentation on eye pigmentation. One might say what does this have to do with mind control? Well, like I said earlier, this type of mind control is a total control - the mind, body and spirit of the victim is totally controlled. It is far more extensive than people would imagine.
This type of mind control regulates the heartbeat of the victim, and a lot of other things. That's why the suicide programming can be so powerful. He started this pigmentation experimentation which Ewen Cameron ... by the way, Josef Mengele, when he came to the USA was known by the programming name, Dr. Green and Ewen Cameron was known as Dr. White within the Illuminati circles. Cisco Wheeler (whom I brought out of the Illuminati) - her father was known as Dr. Black.
Wayne Morris:
You are saying that Cameron and Mengele were associates and friends?

Fritz Springmeier:
Yeah. Cisco would occasionally see these men (Drs. Green, and White and there was a Dr. Blue) meet at her father's house out here on the West Coast. They would come together and discuss their programmings, methodologies, networking, talking with each other, etc. They were Program Masters within the Illuminati. Mengele spent a lot of time travelling world-wide, not just here in the Northwest. Cameron tended to work on the East coast and as you are familiar, the Rockefeller Foundation gave him $40,000 back in 1943 to create the Allen Memorial Institute. Even before Mengele came to this country, Cameron was already part of their Illuminati system.

Wayne Morris:
Did Ewen Cameron have a particular role within the development of mind control technology? I understood he specialized in electroshock and went around the country teaching other psychiatrists on methods of electroshock? Was that his role, or was it broader?

Fritz Springmeier:
They were all working on how to refine the thing - these were your top of the line programmers. Mengele was really the father of it all, and he taught a lot of what he knew to Drs. White, Black and Blue. Mengele was the one who had the opportunity to experiment on a lot of people in the concentration camp where he did all kinds of weird and sadistic things. Cameron and the others were both operational and experimental. If you look at how the military and science works, when they discover something that is workable, they will take that information and they will make a new technology out of it, but they will continue experimenting to improve on what they have done. So, at the same time that Cameron was using electroshock to split the minds of his victims, he was also looking for ways to refine what they were doing. Eventually they came back, and after several decades of looking at the results of the different programming - they took the best programming scripts and the best methodologies and upgraded their programming in general. The programming that is being done today is far more sophisticated and far more refined than what they were working on and operationally carrying out.

Wayne Morris:
What special significance do twins have for Mengele?

Fritz Springmeier:
If you are going to do a scientific experiment, you know you have need of a control group (subject). How do you get a control group for experimentation on humans? You need twins, and you need thousands of them. Mengele experimented on three thousand twins - that was one of the "benefits" of being within the Nazi concentration camp system. As adults and children came through Auschwitz, he had his subordinates indicate which of them were identical twins. Most of the twins that he worked on died because he was beyond sadistic. He was also developing methods on how to bond people and he was learning how to artificially bond people. I had mentioned earlier how Cisco had been teamed with three other people who also escaped from the Illuminati. They were all "twinned" together, they had artificial twinning done to them.

Wayne Morris:
Is it similar to what you were describing before about the "mirroring"?

Fritz Springmeier:
The twinning incorporates all of the 12 sciences of mind control - it is pretty sophisticated in itself.

Wayne Morris:
To your awareness, did the German Nazis use mind control operatives within WWII?

Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yes. They were using them since the early thirties. The Germans and the British both were creating multiples for intelligence work, assassination, and so forth. Prior to the outbreak of WWII, the Nazis were foresighted, and brought Germans to the USA who were trained multiple personalities. They created a settlement of them in Upper New York State. That group of people continues to live there as a group. These multiples who were brought into our country had alters that were programmed to assassinate by sticking picks into people (key places in the body) and things like that. They created this settlement with the idea that if Germany ever would manage to defeat the USA, that these people would be in place to help them.

Wayne Morris:
Is there any indication that the USA government had used mind controlled operatives in WWII?

Fritz Springmeier:
I have not found any indication that they used programmed multiples, but remember that the leadership of our country was in the hands of the Illuminati down through our history. To a large degree our Presidents are related to each other. A lot of people don't realize how related they are. Ulysses S. Grant, the 18th President, was related to Franklin Deleno Roosevelt. The Deleno family is an ancient aristocratic family that originates in Venice. Ulysses Grant was related via the Deleno family. His greatgrandmother was Susannah Deleno. Grant was also from the Collins family. In one of my videotapes, I go into the Grant family and how they tie in with the Illuminati. One of the reasons I do that is because Cisco is a descendant of the Ulysses Grant bloodline, a descendant of the Collins bloodline. This was her ticket into the Illuminati.
Many of our presidents tie back into these Illuminati bloodlines, more than people realize. There were multiple personalities in our government during WWII. But it wasn't until Mengele came over that the Illuminati had somebody with the scientific sophistication to really get into scientifically programs. The "benefit" we received from Mengele and Operation Paperclip was advancing our government's knowledge of how to program innocent children.

Wayne Morris:
I would like to change the topic a little bit. How has popular culture been used for programming, and why has it been used?

Fritz Springmeier:
There are different levels that you lock a person into and control. One is to control their milieu, their environment. It is extremely difficult for me to talk about all of these issues. They build a person's frame of reference from the time they were little. I ask people, "who built your frame of reference? who built your world view?" From the time you were little, establishment groups - churches, schools, and so forth - have been steering your education so there isn't a frame of reference for people to hang the information I would like to give them. If you don't have a frame of reference to understand any of this information, it is hard to break through of the control. By controlling information and what society does, they steer society as a whole. The schools are used, entertainment, Hollywood, everything is used. The programming a person will receive will use the items of everyday life to control them. For instance, Cisco was taught to smoke as a little child by her father who was her programmer, her master. With every puff, she was to think about how much he loved her, and then when she exhaled, she was also to think a programming thought. So the very act of smoking reinforced the mind control. They will take buildings in the area the mind control lives in and they will use those to reinforce the programming. They will use many common items from the slaves' everyday lives to reinforce the programming messages that have been layered.

Wayne Morris:
Maybe we can talk about one film that seems to come up in a lot of survivors' programming - that's 'The Wizard of Oz'. How has that been used?

Fritz Springmeier:
It is one of the standard programming scripts that has been used. A lot of people don't realize that Frank Baum actually wrote 14 Wizard of Oz books - The Tin Woodsman of Oz, The Land of Oz, Glinda of Oz, Ozma of Oz. Actually the books were used more in the programming than the movie. If one goes through and looks at the books, and I extracted some of the programming scripts and put them in the Volume 2 book so people could see how Frank Baum's books, whether they were specifically written for mind control or not, apparently fit in beautifully with creating mind control scripts. The movie then would reinforce the scripts that were put in.

Wayne Morris:
Would these scripts be used mainly for manipulating the reality of the identities being programmed?

Fritz Springmeier:
Most of the personalities that are created within a mind controlled slave, do not live in reality. They live in a fictional world. They work off scripts. For instance if I was going to have a particular personality pick up drugs, they may hypnotically see the person handing them the bag of drugs as The White Rabbit and they might see the bag as some treats or something. They live in a totally fictional world and since these personalities only hold the body at isolated points in time, they don't have any cohesive life in which to challenge the hypnotic programming script they have been given. They live their entire lives in trance. These scripts are very important to use to control the personalities that live in their fictional world.

Wayne Morris:
Can you give some other examples of popular culture that have been used for programming?

Fritz Springmeier:
Batman, Bewitched, Disney movies. One of the very important Disney movies was "Fantasia" and in my recent book, "Deeper Insights" I have eleven pages where I go through minute by minute, scene by scene, in the movie "Fantasia" and show how Fantasia was created and used to be a programming foundation. Star Wars movies, My Fair Lady which was used in the finishing schools for slaves, Stephen King horror movies are used, Startrek, The Love Boat has been used for the mind control of their cruise prostitutes, E.T. - alien programming of their slaves, Alice in Wonderland.

Wayne Morris:
All of these are really prominent in our culture and I am wondering what the effect is on someone who has been programmed if they see these movies again on television or in video rental, or in a movie theatre?

Fritz Springmeier:
It just locks in the control and emphasizes the hopelessness. For a mind controlled slave who is living in a whole culture that is controlled by these people, why would their mind ever think of trying to get free? Their spirits were broken when they were children, and everywhere they look they see the control and the programming.

Wayne Morris:
This isn't to say that some of these tv programs or films have been deliberately made with mind control in mind, but that they have been used by the programmers?

Fritz Springmeier:
Deliberate is more accurate.

Wayne Morris:
So some of these expressions of culture have been deliberately created. Have you looked into the backgrounds of some of the people involved in producing them?

Fritz Springmeier:
Ducktail Cartoons which is put on by Disney contains deliberate triggers for the children. Deliberate triggers in the advertisements; deliberate messages and codes. In "Deeper Insights" I spend about fifty pages going into Disney, who Disney was, what they did behind the scenes, what the movies are all about. Look at "Beauty and the Beast" you will see an enchanted ____clock, or you will see the character Doorknob - protrayed as a person. That's used in the cartoon, "Alice in Wonderland". Those particular sections will be seen by an alter in a person's system, and the mind will be made to believe that they were a doorknob. These are specifically, creatively put into the films for those reasons.
 

Wayne Morris:
Some of these alters that are created are not even animals or people, they can be inanimate objects.

Fritz Springmeier:
Only a few of the front alters of an alter system will realize that they are human.

Wayne Morris:
You have gone into in the book that I have, "The Illuminati Formula ..." quite a bit about Star Trek. What have you learned about the technical manuals published about Star Trek?

Fritz Springmeier:
I have observed programmed multiples - some that have been untreated, and some that have been untreated - who are totally obsessed with everything involved with Star Trek. A former deprogramming assistant gave me information on the Star Trek programming and I could sit and confirm it by my own observations of multiples. Over the years a number of highly technical manuals on Star Trek equipment and themes have been published. When you look at these manuals - the best way of explaining all the money and time that was spent to develop these complex manuals is that they are serving a mind control purpose. Knowing how the programming is put in, I know why they were done a certain way.
Boeing Plant in Seattle has a lot of tunnels underneath it, and some of those tunnels are used for programming. Someone who worked at Boeing was telling me how workers would, on a normal day it was standard for them to sneak off to go into the underground tunnels and watch Star Trek movies. I thought that was interesting.

Wayne Morris:
Can you describe the technical manuals and the level of technical detail that they went into?

Fritz Springmeier:
They have maps of the universe. Where a map of the Milky Way could be used is when you are splintering the mind of a victim and you are looking for some kind of a pattern to restructure it, you would use something like a galaxy map to recreate their mind. You have star clusters, planets. When you wanted to have a whole group of alters, personalities that would only relate to themselves, you could put them on one planet and the only way alters could communicate from one "planet" to another would be through some type of "beam me up" type of thing. When you were being "beamed", you would actually be dissociated and going into trance.
And you have different locomotion devices that are built into the system which are actually methods for the mind going into dissociation. When you are electro-shocking someone, and a flash of light is hitting them at the same time you are applying electroshock, you can tell the person that they are traveling through space, or who knows what, different scripts can be built in.
The technical manuals will have section indexes and when they structure the mind controlled slaves they build sections and those sections are coded and you will find the technical manuals have number codes, color codes which is another aspect of the mind control all the way through. I talked about the 13x13x13 grid earlier within Cisco's system. If you want to add another dimension to your cube, then you add color coding for certain alters.
Each of your alters typically will receive a color code and that ties back in to computers that are built within their minds. These computers are built by taking dissociated parts of the mind and making them into a computer - computers that control each section - and then those computers are in turn controlled by deeper computers. It's very complex but you can certainly see when you look at the technical manuals put together for the Star Trek theme that they dovetail perfectly with what the programming needs are.

Wayne Morris:
These things are purportedly just paraphernalia items for a very limited market of hardcore Trekkies - the price tag seems to be incongruent with the amount of work that has gone into making them.

Fritz Springmeier:
Exactly. That was my thought. My Dad was an engineer and I have looked over a lot of drafting projects. I worked for the Federal Highway Administration for a while so I know the type of engineering work that would go into building a highway, and I am just amazed at the technical detail, engineering, graphics and everything that goes into these technical manuals for something that is a "fiction", a movie ... we are not talking about something that is real life.

Wayne Morris:
Since we are talking about movies, I would like to ask you what has Hollywood's involvement been in mind control slavery?

Fritz Springmeier:
The Illuminati and the Mob have controlled Hollywood. Another aspect of this is that a lot of your slaves are actors, eg. Roseanne Barr, who I mentioned earlier; Madonna; Marilyn Monroe; each of these women was a programmed multiple. You have a lot of slaves who are acting for them. One of the benefits of having programmed multiples is the way their minds have been structured. Some of them are very good at memorizing scripts or getting into fictional roles. As I mentioned earlier, some of the movies, like "Fantasia" - Disneyland itself was a programming center. It was more than their just putting out movies that were for programming, but they actually created a lot of these movies with the codes. Another one I didn't mention is "I Dream of Jeannie" - which is the Delta alter "Jeannie" programming with the trigger "your wish is my command."
Another aspect of Hollywood that comes in here - there are fictional movies, at least they purport to be fictional movies, which are actually showing, amazingly, top secret Illuminati ceremonies and Illuminati history, methods. It's really blown me away to watch some of these things. "Hellraiser 3" shows gatekeepers. Watch "Bell, Book and Candle" or "Curse of the Voodoo". Not only do they show Illuminati ceremonies, but some of these movies actually show the mind control. I would recommend that the listeners, if they wanted to learn more, watch the Charles Bronson movie, "Telethon", or you could watch "The Manchurian Candidate" or "Videodrome", "Labyrinth." I go into explaining how "Labyrinth" is a programming script in the Volume 2 book. "Transfer 2", "Attack of the Robots", "Attack of the Puppet People" ... we could go on and on. Jane Fonda's "The Point of No Return" - that connects in with the OTO. That's one of the occult fronts of the very high-up, powerful organizations involved with the Illuminati.

Wayne Morris:
What do you think is the purpose of having mind control slaves in the Hollywood industry in terms of the impact on the public? What are they trying to accomplish with these films, and are they manipulating these actors in some way to have some effect on the public?

Fritz Springmeier:
There is manipulation in many different ways. I guess one thing I could say that builds upon your last question and also answers your current question, is the late Anton LaVey, for instance, who was the head of the Church of Satan. He was a mind control programmer and he was very close with Hollywood. By using him in Hollywood as an advisor to movies, and in other ways (he tied in with some underground film-making too) it gave him legitimacy. Another person who also connected in some with Hollywood, who was also connected with Anton Lavey, was Michael Aquino who connected in with military intelligence. He was another programmer and he was in charge of another Satanic organization, The Temple of Set.

Wayne Morris:
Which is an offshoot of Anton Lavey's Church of Satan ...

Fritz Springmeier:
Aquino was one of Lavey's henchmen until he formed his own organization.

Wayne Morris:
And Michael Aquino has been implicated in the Presidio daycare child abuse scandal as well ...

Fritz Springmeier:
A very disgusting person like the rest of these programmers. Another tie-in here with Hollywood is Kenneth Anger who was a member of Lavey's group, and he was a film-maker. He is also someone who was infatuated with Aleister Crowley. Kenneth Anger danced with Shirley Temple when he was a child, and Shirley Temple as you know ties in with Walt Disney, and with the mind control too. I believe she was a victim. There is something they do to the children, it's called brainstem scarring and when they scar the brainstem they create photographic memory. That's a whole other subject, but I believe that this child prodigy, Shirley Temple, was also one of their mind control victims. That was prior to WWII. She was, I believe, a multiple.

Wayne Morris:
I wonder if you could just explain briefly how you think that works in terms of damaging the brainstem and how that would affect these memory abilities ...

Fritz Springmeier:
An analogy would be like when somebody does weightlifting - the idea of lifting weights is that you are destroying the muscles and the body overcompensates for the destruction and builds the muscles bigger next time around, like callouses. You damage your skin until your body overcompensates and creates callouses. When your brainstem is electronically scarred, the body overcompensates and rebuilds the brainstem in such a way that you have a photographic memory. So then if you scar somebody's brainstem to start with, and then you traumatize them so the mind splits into multiple personalities, each of those personalities generally takes on the characteristics of its predecessor and has a photographic memory.

Wayne Morris:
It seems that would be very useful in terms of some of the ways operatives are utilized, eg. for espionage. Was that a common technique used in the conditioning, scarring of the brainstem, photographic memory?

Fritz Springmeier:
It is now. During the 1930's when they were creating multiples, they knew that trauma itself helped mental abilities, so there were a lot of just scientists, who weren't part of the Illuminati who were traumatizing their kids to improve their thinking abilities. It's really a warped way of thinking, but there is some efficacy to the methodology.

Wayne Morris:
Just to jump back to the culture industries, and how they have been involved, how has the music industry been involved in mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:
Good question. That takes us back to WWII when first the UK, then Canada, then our country was totally mobilized for the war effort, and they mobilized Hollywood for the war effort. The US military hired all these entertainers for the USO shows - it was placed under the Special Services Division of the Army. They brought in people like Bob Hope who was working for MI-6. Bob Hope is very skilled with mind control. You had earlier asked me if the USA was using programmed multiples? The USA was using mind control during WWII, but not the type of programmed multiplicity that Mengele developed. But during WWII, they were using the USO magicians to pass coded messages to the troops. To say and do things for their intelligence work. What group of people can move from one military unit to another without causing suspicion of the enemy? Entertainers. They used them for US and British intelligence.

Wayne Morris:
So they would be used to pass messages to people in the know ...

Fritz Springmeier:
Right. Bob Hope was an intelligence operative for British Intelligence. He was used in the USO a lot. The USO created at least 200 bands. A lot of the bands we know of now Guy Lombardo, Lawrence Welk, Sam Donahue - these were all created in the USO program. When the USO program ceased at the end of WWII, you had this whole music industry that was basically created by the Intelligence organizations, and it was heavily salted with their intelligence operatives. It was a natural thing for the CIA - created out of the OSS - and the NSA to continue to use the music industry as it had been used in WWII for intelligence purposes. Our entire music industry here in the USA is actually an intelligence front for the Illuminati.

Wayne Morris:
Hmm. I know you have written specifically about the country music industry. I wonder if you could talk about that industry's involvement.

Fritz Springmeier:
I am not trying to single out country and western music. Some people might think Fritz has it in for country and western music - no, I actually enjoy a lot of that music, so I don't have anything against that particular brand, or that particular industry. I mean, the rock and roll music industry is also heavily used and ties in with the mind control too. A lot of the songs in country and western music are deliberately written for programming, but the songs evoke thoughts of god, country - so you have your front there. You have to understand how these people work. They try to play upon things that we get kneejerk reactions to. If I sing a song about god, how can anybody accuse me of being bad? If I sing patriotic songs, how can anyone accuse me of not being a good person? I sing about god and country ...
You look at the front they create, and then they do what they want to behind that front. The whole C&W industry is just part and parcel of the mind control, and of drug running. Because these C&W singers travel from one city to another, they are the perfect vehicles for moving drugs. They are a very important part of the Illuminati drug running.

Wayne Morris:
In your book you have alleged a lot of the leading C&W figures are involved in this activity?

Fritz Springmeier:
Yeah, some of them are victims of the mind control; some are abusers of the mind control; some of them are programmers. One of the worst mind control programmers within the industry is Jerry Lee Lewis. He has a very bad reputation. He is infamous among victims of mind control for being an extremely sadistic programmer. When slaves manage to escape, they are very often sent to Jerry Lee Lewis and his cousin, a minister, and also ties in with this as a programmed multiple.

Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that the use of popular culture and these entertainment industries serves another purpose in terms of preconditioning society as a whole, or manipulating social beliefs?

Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yeah, definitely. The whole long-range goal of this, and when I say long-range, it's not going to take them long to get us there at the rate they are going - the end goal of all of this is to eventually create an entire planet of mind controlled slaves that can be controlled by one super computer. They are manipulating our thoughts and our attitudes, and steering us, herding us (they consider us animals - the Illuminati consider themselves god, god men and us to be the animals) they are herding us in the direction they want to us to go. So yeah, the music is definitely playing a role in dehumanizing us, conditioning us, as well as a lot of mind control triggers and messages are passed via the singing. In the Volume 2 book and in the "Deeper Insights" book, I spend quite a few pages going into the codes and the triggers, and I spend several pages explaining what the different songs that are played over the radio - how they are used in triggering mind controlled slaves.

Wayne Morris:
Again, I guess it's part of having a culture permeated with the kind of triggers that just reinforces the programming for the victims.

Fritz Springmeier:
Right. And if they are going to have their programmed slaves go to a ritual, there is one song, "A Heartache Tonight", which will be played over some radio stations. And if I am a mind controlled slave, and it's Friday night, and I hear that song over the radio, I may be programmed to switch alters and go to a pre-arranged location where I am picked up or whatever, and participate in a satanic sabbat. They are able to use the music industry in a whole number of ways.

Wayne Morris:
To you knowledge, Fritz, what groups are involved currently in using mind control slavery?

Fritz Springmeier:
Currently, mind controlled slaves are used by intelligence organizations; occult groups; military groups; big and small religious groups. Many various criminals who are in each of these groups network together and in fact, their own word to describe themselves is "The Network". If we are a little bit more specific about what groups - I was giving you the broad, general categories. Examples within the US military are Delta Forces, First Earth Battalion, are mind controlled units. Then you've got mind controlled slaves scattered throughout all of the regular branches. Within your intelligence organizations some of the big offenders are MI-6 and of course their P-4 section, and Naval Intelligence which is ONI. A lot of government organizations like Bureau of Narcotics, FBI, NASA. When we look at what kind of occult groups are using this trauma-based total mind control you will see the KKK, Neo-Nazis, OTO. You will see groups like the Freemasons and the Oddfellows. Then you get more hardcore occult groups like the Church of Satan, the Children of Lucifer, Society of the Dark Lily. Religions? You've got your smaller religions like this group that was so interested in Halle Boppe to the extent they committed suicide. Small groups like that. According to the information I have, David Koresh and his leaders were mind controlled slaves who were conducting group control methods over their Branch Davidian group. You've got your small groups like this clear up to your large groups like the Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, and the Charismatic Movement.

Wayne Morris:
Some of the branches of the military you mentioned - the Delta Forces and the First Earth Battalion - are you saying that all of the people involved in these forces are mind controlled?

Fritz Springmeier:
Within Delta Forces, 100% of them are. Within the First Earth Battalion, from what I understand, that could also be 100% of its units are under mind control. Within the Army - the Army has special task groups that - for instance - I am sorry to say, but unfortunately it's true - the US Army has select squads of assassins that travel even around the USA and eliminate people. From my inside information on that, these squads are not entirely made up of mind controlled slaves - they have a variety of control methods over these types. I guess what I am saying is, that although you may find a smattering of mind controlled slaves used in various branches of the military, those first two that I mentioned are the only ones that I know of that are entirely made up of mind controlled robots.

Wayne Morris:
These military operatives - would they have been subjected to the trauma-based conditioning from childhood?

Fritz Springmeier:
Yes. That's what I am talking about.

Wayne Morris:
How typically do people who end up in these forces get introduced to the mind control? Through their families?

Fritz Springmeier:
Well these are victims of mind control that would have been placed under mind control in childhood.

Wayne Morris:
Typically would they be from military families?

Fritz Springmeier:
They would be from a wide variety. If you have looked at the way the military does things, there is a lot of what they call "military brats" - the children of military men that then are put into positions of responsibility.

Wayne Morris:
To your awareness, has the corporate world used mind control in any way?

Fritz Springmeier:
Yes, the corporate world does use mind controlled slaves. Several examples that pop immediately into my mind are ARCO - some of your listeners may have read "Angels don't play this HAARP" by Begich and Manning. If they haven't, I recommend the book. You will read quite a bit about ARCO which did all kinds of HAARP research. ARCO did a lot of research and the branch of ARCO which is APPI held some of the patents. They also worked with E Systems which held some of the patents for HAARP research. ARCO is one of the worst offenders, at least in terms of what I have discovered from victims of mind control that I have been in contact with. They are one of the worst, so that probably explains why they were given a highly sensitive project like HAARP.
Another company that was given sensitive work to do was Gunderson. Here in Portland Gunderson Steel has been making a large number of special order rail cars which have shackles and cupolas for guards. It is a very sensitive secret project which has been farmed out to 11 major railcar producers. Gunderson is one of these.
And these railcars are to be used to transport civilians to all these already-built concentration camps across America. Gunderson is another one of these companies that uses mind control slaves. I am speaking with firsthand knowledge about that because I have spoken with some of the programmed multiples that work at Gunderson.
Another corporation that comes to mind is a big, corporate conglomerate - Disney, Capital Cities, ABC - the three of them went together and made themselves a nice, big corporate conglomerate. They produce porn and they do some other activities with the programmed multiple slaves.

Wayne Morris:
Just getting back to ARCO, we are actually going to be interviewing Nick Begitch in a future show and talking about the HAARP project in particular. I understand there are mind control elements to that project in particular. The information you found is in addition to that - they have been using mind controlled, trauma-based conditioned slaves as well? V
Fritz Springmeier
Right. His book doesn't talk about mind controlled slaves being used by ARCO - his book is about this technology that they are installing in Alaska. It is a Star Wars-type technology that works in the atmosphere and manipulates things electronically - electromagnetic radiation.

Wayne Morris:
Yeah. It's a huge antenna array that shoots high frequency energy into the ionosphere. V
Fritz Springmeier
Besides communicating with satellites, it can actually change the weather. It can also manipulate the way people think in a geographical area that has been hit by its electromagnetic radiation.

Wayne Morris:
One of the side effects apparently is extra low frequency energy that is reflected back to earth which is the frequency that our brain operates on.
What typically would these companies use mind controlled slaves for?

Fritz Springmeier
Sensitive projects that have to be kept under wraps by the New World Order. The production of railcars to haul civilians to concentration camps. Our government has kept the concentration camp project pretty low key.

Wayne Morris:
So these people would be used to work on these projects and the company ensuring that they don't talk about it outside.
You spoke of the Illuminati being an extension of mystery religions and I wonder if you could tell our listeners what were the mystery religions, and what was their role in history?

Fritz Springmeier
You have asked two questions. One of the people who is well worth quoting is Manley P. Hall. He is both a Grand Master Illuminati and a Grand Master in the Freemasons. In his book, "The Secret Teachings of All Ages", he said that the mystery religions were the channel through which the light to mankind was disseminated. (p.29) The mystery religions claimed to the ancient world that they had revelation knowledge that would help enlighten and save people. They claimed that by joining them, and then going through the secret rituals, that you would elevate yourself. They claimed that you would become divine, or that you would reunite with your divine self if you went through the rituals and got to the highest, deepest levels of their secrets. That's what they were telling people on the outside. There are a lot of different ways to look at a phenomenon and I want to bring in a couple of other angles. First, Swinbourne Kleimer, a high ranking Freemason and Rosicrucian leader, said that there was a secret body that ruled and controlled all the various ancient mystery religions in the ancient world - Europe, Egypt, Babylon, clear over to Indian. You can read this claim in his book "Ancient Mystic Oriental Freemasonry" on p. 84-85. I can agree with him. What he is referring to here - the one secret body that will control all the various mystery religions - was what we call today The Illuminati. The Illuminati is the continuation of that secret controlling body. Freemasonry is the outer symbology of the ancient mystery religions, but if you want the hardcore rituals of the ancient mystery religions, those are the ones that are performed by the Illuminati.
And what was their role in history? They played an exceptionally role in history. If one thinks about the power that kings have, who are kings dependent on? Kings must work through other people and they are dependent on their advisors, and their financiers. You can't have a king going off and making a war unless he has money, so he is depending on those financiers. The financiers are dependent on trade and production of goods. The mystery religions, or secret societies, had so much power because they controlled the trade guilds with the trade secrets on how to produce the different goods. For instance the art of making armour, or the art of making a long bow, or the art of making a venetian war ship, or getting closer to home - the roots of Freemasonry go back to the masonic builders guild and the architectural knowledge to design and build a cathedral was controlled by trade guilds which were controlled by these mystery religions, these secret societies. You could be the king of a country, but you were still under the control of these mystery religions and secret societies. The man who supposedly converted the Roman Empire over to Christianity was the head of the Mithra mystery religion. They have played an extremely powerful and important part in history. They have controlled the priesthood and the trade guilds. But also there are a couple of ways they have played a continuous role in history in that they have guided human endeavours because the Illuminati, the mystery religions, have what they call "The Keepers of the Great Plans". That's not just my own opinion. Manley P. Hall, the Illuminati kingpin, in at least one of his books, goes into how the mystery religions of the great plan to bring in this great New World Order.

Wayne Morris:
What was this great plan?

Fritz Springmeier
Part of it goes back to the idea of the Golden Age of the Millenium. That's an important concept for me to talk about. I will be stepping on a few people's toes here. Your Christians are really unaware of where their concept of the millenium came from. They think that it comes from the bible, but if they go back historically they will see that William Miller, who started the Adventist movement and started talking about millenium, was a high ranking Freemason. He predicted that Christ would return in 1844. The question is, did Christ return in 1844? Most people, because we have a limited perspective on things, would say no, he didn't. But there was a man called Nabob who appeared in Persia, and he said I am Christ, and he started the Bahai religion. He fulfilled William Miller's prophecy. The Freemasons were the ones who introduced the Bahai religion to America, and they did it through the Chicago Masonic Temple around the turn of the century. The Bahai religion is committed to a one world government, a new world order, and a one world religion. There was this Masonic Oriental Order of the Magi and they were the hardcore group within the Chicago Masonic Temple who started the Bahai religion in this country. These are the kinds of things that I tried to expose so that people see how this all interconnects.
A very brilliant man, James H. Billington, who was the librarian of the Library of Congress, wrote a book, "Fire in the Minds of Men" and the Illuminati didn't realize what he was doing. He kind of blindsided. He was a member of the Council of Foreign Relations so he as one of them. They thought he was one of theirs. This book goes through and it talks about where the word "revolution" came from - it came from the occult societies. The word "revolution" which we use today to mean "armed rebellion" didn't have that meaning in the beginning. The way it began to be used to mean armed rebellion to overthrow the old order and establish something new, was because occult societies, like the Freemasons who had been behind all of the revolutions of modern history from the American Revolution on - have all been created by the Freemasons and the Illuminati. Billington goes back in and traces how all the revolutions were started by this occult elite. The term revolution came from the occult idea that we were going to revolve ourselves back to the Golden Age. There is this great quest for the Golden Age, this millenialism. That's what communism is about. If you look at the early founders of communism - they were trying to revolve us back through revolution to the Golden Age that had been lost.

Wayne Morris:
What was their idea of what a Golden Age consisted of?

Fritz Springmeier
Socialized communistic type society. This is why when you read masonic prophets, like H.G. Wells who wrote a number of books on how the New World Order could be brought about, the Fabian Socialists, etc. who have all these detailed plans - it's always for a socialistic, communistic type utopia.

Wayne Morris:
But with a fascist leadership it seems ...

Fritz Springmeier
Yes. (laughs) On the surface it sounds really hunky-dory. It sounds really great. But it ends up more like Animal Farm and George Orwell.

Wayne Morris:
I would also like to talk about what the relation of intelligence groups such as the CIA, the DIA and the MI-6 is to the Illuminati.

Fritz Springmeier
There's a very close relationship. You will notice with MI-6, in the first few decades of their existence (they came into existence at the turn of the century), they hired only women who came from elite Illuminati families. If you were a female working with MI-6, you were referred to as Queenie, and they really were Illuminati queens. We go back and look at who set up these organizations, who runs these organizations. Look at the CIA for instance. People that understand what the Council for Foreign Relations is all about and how that's an Illuminati front will understand better what I am talking about. You look at Dulles, McCone, Helms, Slesinger, Bush, Turner, Casey - you just go down your list of directors of the CIA - and they were members of the Council for Foreign Relations. Not only that, but they were members of other organizations that are Illuminati fronts. Turner was a Rhodes scholar which is an entry point for Illuminati. The Astors helped found the Rhodes scholars. Casey and McCone - both of whom were Knights of Malta. Look at the membership of the Knights of Malta, 50% black nobility. I am talking about black in the context of the black (guelph) European aristocratic bloodlines - the black (.....s) were a very powerful bloodline that have controlled Europe for many centuries. General Walter Bedell Smith was head of the CIA - from 1950 to 1953 - working in US intelligence - he was one of the co-founders of the Bilderbergers. Prince Bernhardt (Illuminati) was the Chairman of the original Bilderbergers. One of the late Chairs was Peter Rupert (Lord Carrington) was Order of St. John which is the Protestant version of the Knights of Malta. He was a director of a number of the Rothschild organizations like the Rio Tinto Zinc Corporation. He was a member of the Order of the Garter, which is very significant; and a member of the Order of Osiris. The Order of the Garter is one of the primary organizations which was given the responsibility to be in charge of the plans to bring in the New World Order by the Illuminati, and to give continuity from one generation to another. The Order of the Garter is extremely powerful. Your coat of arms etc. is all controlled by the Order of the Garter which is set up in covens of 13, groups of 13. If you have ever looked at heraldry you will know how important this is. The Bilderbergers is also set up in groups of 13, the inner committee is 13.

Wayne Morris:
Henry Kissinger is a prominent member of the Bilderbergers. What is his involvement in that group, to your awareness?

Fritz Springmeier
I don't know that he is a member himself, but he is a member of MI-6, he has been a member of P2 Freemasonry, involved with a lot of things. He is a big player for them to implement their agenda. I do not know whether he's an actual member within the Illuminati or not, but he has sure been a big player. In fact one day I listened to Henry Kissinger speaking and he said, "We will get a New World Order. We may not get it in our generation, but if we do not get it in our generation, we will get it in the next generation." In other words they are just going to keep trying. That's what the Order of the Garter has been assigned to do. When we look at these different intelligence groups, like the KGB and the CIA, we think we are looking at two groups that are fighting a covert war against each other. However that is only what we are meant to see.
There is a recent book by a Colonel Corsell, "Day After Roswell". His book is eye opening in many ways, in fact it may be hard to get after a little while. There seems to be a movement to suppress it. In his book he talks about how the CIA and the KGB are essentially one organization, and this was back in the 50's. He was tailed by CIA agents even though he was a Colonel in the US Army - he's got the CIA spying on him, trying to find out what he is doing. He has to keep secrets from the CIA. I had an acquaintance whose father is high up in the CIA and he said when he was a teenager, one day his father came by and dropped a bombshell on him in that he couldn't even understand what his father was talking about. His father said out of the blue that the Cold War was a hoax. This teenager who had bought into the appearances the common people are supposed to accept was really confused. He didn't understand. He said it took him years to understand what his father was secretly referring to.
We see these different groups and they appear to be different teams. But it's sort of like coming up to a football field and seeing two teams playing each other - you can't automatically assume they are not from the same school. It may be a scrimmage or an intervarsity game. You will see the hidden hand of the Illuminati in the creation of both the CIA and the KGB. In MI-6 you will see Lord Victor Rothschild running things; Admiral Sir Hugh Sinclair - the Sinclairs are one of these families. MI-5, which is internal security for Britain - their first Director General for many years was Major General Sir Vern Keele. He was a Freemason, and a number of other Director Generals of MI-5 have also been Freemasons and also have been tied to these other organizations. The Director of MI-5 during WWII was Knights of Grace of St. John. You could go on and on showing the overlapping connections.
If you look at Allen Dulles who was the Director of the CIA from 1953-1961 you will see his role with Hitler prior to WWII, working with the international financiers - the bankers of these Illuminati kingpins. You will see his connections to the elite.

Wayne Morris:
And certainly the information about the CIA facilitating the flight of Nazi war criminals to North America - Dulles was involved in that.

Fritz Springmeier
Dulles was the man the Illuminati used to inform Hitler that the financiers would support him in his bid for power. He was the guy who brought the good news to Hitler ... hey, you can go for it, we will finance you.

Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about another CIA director who was actually recently in Toronto accepting an Honorary Degree at the University of Toronto - George Bush. I wondered if you could talk about his affiliation with Skull & Bones ...

Fritz Springmeier
Skull & Bones is an entry point into the Illuminati. Researchers have noticed the Skull & Bones, but there are a lot of other organizations which are entry points. Rhodes Scholars, a group in Oxford, there are number of different fraternal organizations. Skull & Bones is not the only one - but that's the one George Bush joined. There is also Scroll & Key, Rezilius, and some other fraternal organizations. One of the things George Bush did in his initiation ceremony for Skull & Bones was to lie in manure and recount all of his sexual exploits.

Wayne Morris:
I understand that's an initiation ritual for all members of Skull & Bones.

Fritz Springmeier
Right.

Wayne Morris:
You mentioned at the top of the interview that George Bush was related to some royal family - is that the House of Windsor?

Fritz Springmeier:
He is a distant relative of Prince Charles and Queen Elizabeth. It's a distant relationship.

Wayne Morris:
In your opinion, what has George Bush's role been in attempting to implement a global government?

Fritz Springmeier:
He's been a criminal, and he has provided leadership for criminal activity. He's been involved with creating wars, with drug running, with pornography and mind control.

Wayne Morris:
Are you aware of any information that George Bush is also a pedophile?

Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yeah. Cathy O'Brien for instance, who I have visited with, her daughter spent time with George Bush and other people that are familiar with the mind control and what's going on have also said that the man was a pedophile.

Wayne Morris:
Do you think that people in groups trying to bring about global control are planning a take-over attempt at a certain point in time, or do you think they will continue this New World Order more gradually as they have been doing through expanded economic blocks and so forth?

Fritz Springmeier:
It's a combination of gradual, spiced with some cataclysmic events. From the vantage point of being a planner, and having the actual plans and details, you would see that things are being implemented on a continuous basis. For instance, I have mentioned previously that the Panama Canal and Suez Canal were planned by the Illuminati back around 1800 if not before. Those were things they wanted to implement on the way to a New World Order.
When you see cataclysmic events occur, let's say there is a nuclear exchange or aliens all of a sudden arrive, they seem cataclysmic and instantaneous to those of us who are the common people. But the planning for these events has gone on for a long time. So yes, it will be gradual, if you are looking at the implementation of these plans - but the appearance of some of these things will be rather cataclysmic. In order to bring in the New World Order as they would like to implement it, they want us to ask them to bring in what they want. So for instance in WWII when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, the Americans wanted to give away their freedoms to make their government more powerful. They will be implementing things that will cause us to ask us to do what they want to do.

Wayne Morris:
What kinds of scenarios are possible?

Fritz Springmeier:
For instance in Australia - where this madman went in and he gunned down a lot of innocent people - children and families - boy - right after that they ramrodded through gun legislation and approximately half a million weapons were turned in without a fight by the Australians because of this horrendous massacre that took place. The same things are going to happen in this country and on this surface it's going to appear like this is just a madman who flipped out and he gunned down a lot of people. But from "their" vantage-point, they have spent a lot of years planning and programming.

Wayne Morris:
And one could argue that it has already started to happen in terms of things like the Oklahoma City bombing and bringing in the counter-terrorism bill immediately after.

Fritz Springmeier:
Yes. Exactly. I would say yes to both aspects. It will be both gradual and it will have a cataclysmic impact.

Wayne Morris:
How, in your opinion, could mind control be used in one of these scenarios to create cataclysmic events?

Fritz Springmeier:
I use the term "New World Order" but you could also use "World Order" because the same people who are bringing in the new world order have actually been controlling the world all along. It's really not "new" at all - it's just going into a more intense phase where the control is going to be more intense, and the mind control is going to be more pervasive and powerful. These people have been controlling things from behind the scenes for a long time. We go back and look at the power the British Empire had and the power that the French Empire had - and you ask yourself, well who was running the British Empire and the French Empire? And you see the same people, the same families. I had mentioned earlier how many American presidents were related and how we have really been controlled by these oligarchal families here in the USA.

Wayne Morris:
How would mind control possibly be used in a take-over scenario?

Fritz Springmeier:
One way that it could be used is if people look at the Charles Bronson movie, "Telethon", you will see the end result of this mind control. A housewife is called, given a fairy-tale ditty, and she goes out and blows up a military installation. There are a lot of people with programming to do acts of sabotage and assassination.
There are a lot of things that have to be accomplished. The weakest link in the chain is going to bust - and in order to implement all of these things from behind the scenes - you have to have mind controlled people salted in at all different levels to ensure that nobody reveals the secrets, that people do the job they are supposed to, that people forget the things they are supposed to forget. For instance banking - in the last few years a lot of banks have gone bankrupt. That has been very quietly covered over by bank mergers. A bank goes belly-up - they will bring in a bigger bank and swallow it up and call it a merger instead of a bankruptcy. How do they keep these things secret? I know some programmed multiples personally working in the banking system, and I do not know the full extent of what these people are used for, I can only speculate. They are definitely using mind controlled slaves within the banking system to hide their manipulations.

Wayne Morris:
Quite a number of victims of mind control have spoken about end-times programming. What can you tell us about that?

Fritz Springmeier:
The end-times programming refers to programming geared to bringing in New World Order and the reign of the anti-christ. It has a lot of colour programming - the list of people who are to be dealt with includes a red list comprised of those who are anti-new-world-order opposition leaders who are to be executed about two weeks before martial law. The blue list are people who are against what is being done, but they are going to attempt to program them, arrest them to see if they can correct their thinking. Probably a lot of them will be killed in the midst of reprogramming. The final list, the yellow list, is people who will be rounded up for re-education camps after martial law.
In the programming there are yellow flags at half-mast; yellow dog on run; blue fish at home; and I know this from work with mind control victims. Colour codes are used because they will be using a lot of mind control slaves, including foreign troops (eg. Russians) to implement these things. It is easier to use colour coding. Things will be implemented with activation codes which also use colour codes, eg. blue ray, red ray, purple ray, green ray. Those will go to team leaders. If the listeners are familiar with Amway they understand uplines and downlines - a team leader can have perhaps four people under him - he calls them - each of them calls four people. Those will be colour-coded. Each one of the eg. four will have a colour (blue ray, red ray, purple ray, green ray). And then some of the sites are colour coded. Internally within the minds of the slaves, some of them have internal crystals -- these crystals are timed -- they could also be rocks -- they are timed to explode or release certain programming at a certain point in time. These crystals will have colour codes as well.
If the therapist begins getting into end-time programming, that's one of the things they are going to notice. They are also going to notice mountain-tops are used quite a lot for meeting place or significant places. A lot of international cooperation is involved in their plans and programming. Common news events are often-times triggers -- eg. Lady Diana dying -- Princess Di's death caused certain mind control slaves to trigger off that news event.
End times programming also involves (because of the ushering in of the reign of the anti-christ) demonology involved -- the Demon "Purson" involved with the programming. His job is the Revelator of the anti-christ. He will know a victim's system. You will see "Apollo" -- Son of Apollo is the anti-christ -- so Apollo is the father of the anti-christ. You will see Escolapius (sp) - he is the Demon of healing. You see a lot of healing going on in the Charismatic Movement -- some of the ministers in this Movement are actually satanists and I know from eye witnesses that in secret they carry out satanic rituals where they attempt to gain the power of Escolapius which is a demonic healing power. When they go into these churches they use mind control and this demonic healing power to heal Christians and then tell people "God healed you". They don't state to them which god ...
Another aspect that is characteristic to the end-times programming is the involvement of the aliens. A lot of alien programming, plans with aliens, and a whole series of programming categories related to catastrophes. I am now speaking to therapists - when you get into the part of the system that is involved with end-times catastrophes, you will get into working with _____ alters. And another area involves a lot of computer control of people. And I am still only in the beginning of understanding all of this. There is an actual computer at 666 Connecticut Avenue in Washington, DC which is called the Janus 2 computer. When victims start spewing out their programming they start talking about the Janus coding which has something to do with tracking and reprogramming, and ties in with computers.
Then there is the Ambassador coding (sub-codes include setting fires; suicide; doing an act of violence against somebody). Emperor coding. Morse coding.

Wayne Morris:
What in a general sense would they be programmed to do.

Fritz Springmeier:
We are not talking about just running drugs or prostitution -- we are talking about control of society as a whole. One of the scarier options they have is to bring in a mock alien invasion. They will have flying saucers with aliens arrive. Because they control so many different aspects of society, even though a number of people like myself would say "beware of this, beware of that" we would be drowned out by this orchestra of people in different sectors of society (congressmen, newsmen, religious leaders) saying whatever the plan is for them to say. Of course there will be controlled opposition. There will be a few people saying, "I distrust these aliens, or this agenda, or what the government is doing" but they will be controlled opposition who will gather all the opposition to what they want to do and raise the hopes of people who are against this hidden agenda but will not actually carry through and stop it.

Wayne Morris:
Do you believe that the governments of the world have UFO technology that they have been developing? This alien invasion would be a staged invasion using their own military technology ...

Fritz Springmeier:
There is no question in my mind about it. Another agenda they have is to destroy faith in national governments. That has been divided into thousands of different projects. Jehovah's Witnesses who go door to door. If you look at their literature, it works very hard at destroying faith in nationalism. But who would suspect the Jehovah's Witnesses? Their Watchtower Society is actually an Illuminati front. In fact one of their members accidentally stumbled on to a big clue to this - he noticed there were thousands of hidden occult symbols in the Watchtower artwork. There would be a picture of a waterfall in a Watchtower magazine, but when you looked at it really closely you would realize it was a skull. It's like Currier & Ives used to have these hidden pictures - look at a tree and see other pictures. They have these occult messages hidden in the Watchtower literature - like a goat leading a herd of sheep, things like that. Or a thief running off with occult jewellery with an all-seeing eye and things like this.
They have a lot of hidden messages. Who would think of Jehovah's Witnesses being used? They use J-W's to access some of their slaves. Who can go door-to-door without suspicion? I brought Cisco out of the Illuminati. It doesn't mean I am the only person who ever helped her, but these J-W's will come to the door, and I will say, "No, don't answer the door." Her natural inclination would have been, "oh they are just Jehovah Witnesses." Interestingly the same couple who came to our door, to try to talk to Cisco, showed up the next day clear across town at another victim's doorstep - very strange. I know the Jehovah Witnesses from the inside and how they map out their territories and how they go door to door - and what happened was not normal. You had to have a team of people who were trying to access slaves that were getting free, and their cover was to be Jehovah Witnesses.
It sounds like I am getting a little bit off track, but what I am trying to say is - it is in their objective to destroy faith in the national government. How do you destroy a national government? You create civil war, create distrust of that government, bankrupt that government. There are all these different projects to bring down the American government, and bring down respect for our government - they play both ends against the middle.
Implementation of the end-times agendas involves a lot of agendas and a lot of people scurrying around doing different things -- until you see the whole picture and how it all fits together, it just looks like a lot of chaos.

Wayne Morris:
I wanted to come back to your point about them creating a chaotic situation, such as some of the scenarios you have been talking about. In order for the public to then ask for the military to step in, or for the United Nations to step in, and basically ask for a state of martial law -- is that your take on how they are going to do this?

Fritz Springmeier:
We will ask them for what they want to do. People have sat in on Illuminati meetings where they gave their 20, 30, 40 year plans -- the key word to all of those plans was that it would happen "naturally" - as if it was naturally happening. In order to implement that, you have a lot of mind controlled slaves out there. Another example, they want to destroy the continuity of religious beliefs in the USA. The USA was basically founded by a Protestant majority, there were very few Catholics when the USA was started. In other words, the people of this country had a common agreement -- one outlook on morality.
Fritz Springmeier:
When people have a moral belief system, Buddhist or whatever, if it's a very strong belife system, it's hard to change them. What they are trying to do is fragment our belief system. They have brought in a lot of foreign belief systems into the USA but you also have all of these New Age gurus popping up and creating their own little New Age groups. In the bigger picture, it's to destroy the fabric of a unified moral response, and a lot of these New Age leaders (eg. Elizabeth Claire Prophet - Church Universal and Triumphant) are mind controlled slaves. Jay Z. Knight, that's who she goes by - the entity she channels - she's a mind control slave. These are New Age leaders and they are gathering flocks. One of the gals who became a friend of mine who left the C.U.T. and became a Christian, in having worked with her, I noticed some red flags that maybe she, as one of the leaders of Elizabeth Claire Prophet's group, was a mind control victim, and she's not the only evidence I have that not only are the leaders under mind control who start the groups, but part of their flocks are mind control victims who are being programmed to join these cults.
Imagine if you are a religious leader and you get secret help from the establishment and you have people being programmed to join your organization, how that gives you an edge over you or I starting a religion. So that's one reason why we have such a chaotic religious atmosphere out there where all of these gurus and religious leaders are starting all these small weird groups.

Wayne Morris:
You talked about Dr. Ewen Cameron as being one of the mind control programmers. I would like to know specifically what his and McGill University's contribution to the development of trauma based mind control is, to your awareness.

Fritz Springmeier:
I don't know that I have a great deal to share. I know that St. Mary's Hospital there in Montreal was used by these people for programming. In the basement they had what was known as The Zombie Room, and an isolation room and the Grid Room. From various victims of mind control I know that various Catholic Church institutions were used in Quebec. As far as Cameron's personal contribution, I know that he worked for years assisting in the programming and research. The things that he researched were classified, and I don't have a good grasp of what he discovered. I know that if we read "Journey Into Madness" by Gordon Thomas, in a couple of places in his book he makes fun of Dr. Cameron. He says that Cameron's grants hadn't produced any tangible value to the CIA or that there was a Dr. Gottlieb who was supposedly investigating the doctor and questioning whether Cameron had done anything to help the agents. I consider those kinds of statements the typical kind of CIA disinformation that is put out. They typically say "we did research but we didn't find anything of value." I have a hard time believing that Dr. Cameron who was on the leading edge of mind control and who was in touch with the top mind control programmers of his day and learning techniques from them - that the man was of no value to the CIA. I am not trying to put down Gordon Thomas' book because I would recommend it to people, but this is the type of disinformation that spews forth from so many different sources. Why was he head of the prestigious American Psychiatric Association, and the World Psychiatric Association? Why was he put in charge of so many very powerful organizations by the establishment if he was so worthless to their agenda?

Wayne Morris:
Just in a general sense, what were the types of institutions that were involved in the development of mind control across North America?

Fritz Springmeier:
Good question. I can quote them. Admiral Stansfield Turner, on August 3, 1977, told a Senate Investigating Committee that in the USA, prisons, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, 44 medical colleges, American universities and corporations were helping the CIA carry out the mind control experiments. I believe that using the word "experiments" is a little bit of disinformation. This was operational programming. They were taking the people who were coming out of these mind control experiments and using them. They were far more than just experiments. But those were the kind of institutions that were assisting in the programming.

Wayne Morris:
Can you make a statement about the role of psychiatry in the development of mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:
They have been very important to develop the mind control from being more what we would call training to being placed on a very scientific basis. There has been extensive research into the mind by psychiatrists. That research has been invaluable for developing the mind control technologies. Behavior modification (Skinner, Pavlov, etc) findings were directly implemented in teaching various alters to do certain things. If you read our Volume 2 book and the Deeper Insights book, I go into how each of the different alters are created (ie. Gatekeepers). At some point a Gatekeeper alter will be taken to a door and then using behavior modification techniques, severely torturing the alter, they are taught not to step beyond the door, but hold their place at that door. The research that shows that this type of training would be effective came from behavior modification and psychiatrists.

Wayne Morris:
Do you think that some psychiatrists may have been unwitting in helping develop this technology?

Fritz Springmeier:
There are several different levels of participation. People who are just plain evil; people who are coerced, blackmailed, mind control victims themselves; then a level of people below that who are unwitting dupes of the system. My father was never part of the system in the sense of he never joined any occult societies, he is not in favour of a New World Order, philosophically he's not aligned with them. He's just somebody who believes in science and he believes science can help the world. He wanted to help the world, make a positive difference. The Illuminati deflect what these researchers want for good and use it for evil purposes. I have a hard time with one scientist I was talking with earlier this year. He developed biological weapons for the USa (viruses, anthrax, etc.). He said knowledge is neutral, it is neither good nor bad. It's how it's used. I am thinking in my head, "are you that stupid, that you don't realize the people you are working for and who are going to use this stuff are going to use it for evil? ..." A lot of these scientists are so focused on the tiny little details of what they are trying to research, and ego plays a part in this. They want to discover something - their ego, pride, concentration in the research doesn't allow them to step back and say "what is this going to be used for?"

Wayne Morris:
The information that we have been talking about has been quite depressing, and I think a lot of people are going to be affected by it. What message of hope do you have for people after learning about all of this?

Fritz Springmeier:
There's two sides to a coin, and we have been talking about the negative side of the coin. The positive side is that a lot of the technologies that have been developed could actually be used for the advancement of mankind, to benefit mankind. Another positive is that in spite of the forces that are trying to destroy humanity, there are a lot of positive forces. There are quite a number of independent researchers, and they haven't gotten much media attention except ridicule - people have been researching free energy, and they have made a lot of advancements - so the common person would not be dependent upon the establishment for any of its energy. Another area of research is alternative medicine, amazing discoveries that really liberate people from establishment medicine. You have the internet and photocopy machines which have given the common person the ability to transmit and gather a lot of information without being part of the establishment. You have home schooling. There are developments that are taking place that do not rely on the establishment monopolies. These monopolies are fragile and they can be broken.
Another positive is that in spite of the monumental power they have, people like myself have been able to slip through their control cracks and have been able to free people from the deepest depths of the organizations. I have been able to get out so much information exposing their methods and their agenda. I am saying this to show these people are not invincible.

Wayne Morris:
I would like to thank you very much for joining us on this radio series. It's been absolutely fascinating talking to you, and I would like to thank you for bringing this information out.

Fritz Springmeier:
I very much appreciate this chance, and I want to congratulate your courage and your love for the truth in bringing this to the Canadian and the American people.




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Wayne Morris:
Stay tuned next week for an interview with Cisco Wheeler, Fritz Springmeier's co-author, and former Illuminati family mind controlled slave. CBC TV is going to be airing a few productions on mind control this week. The Fifth Estate is supposed to be airing an investigation which was supposed to be about Montreal psychiatrist, Dr. Pivnicki (Mila Mulroney's father) and his role in covering up the Cameron mind control experiments. I am not sure if that's what is on this week - I don't know if they had to change that due to Brian Mulroney's attempt to clear his name. Also one week today, Sunday January 11, 1998 at 8-10pm will be Part One of The Sleep Room, which is a documentary based on Anne Collins' book "In The Sleep Room" based on Dr. Ewen Cameron and his CIA funded experiments on his psychiatric patients at the Allen Memorial Psychiatric Institute in Montreal. Dr. Cameron was the target of two lawsuits against the CIA and the Canadian government by his psychiatric patients who had been unwittingly involved in his experiments which involved electroshock, sensory deprivation, psychic driving, drugs, reportedly in an effort to wipe out a person's mind and create a new personality.
Now throughout this series we have heard an even darker side to Dr. Ewen Cameron's mind control experiments, and that his involvement in trauma conditioning of children. This extreme form of mind control perpetrated against children involved creating and controlling multiple identities through torture, physical, emotional and sexual abuse, hypnosis, drugs, electroshock and structural programming. We have heard from Claudia Mullen and her testimony given to the US Presidential Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments in 1995 about how Dr. Cameron would electroshock her after being involved in an experiment or sexual blackmail operation when she was still a child. We heard from Lynne Moss-Sharman who was experimented on and programmed by Dr. Ewen Cameron along with Dr. Jose Delgado, another well-known CIA mind control doctor, and we heard most recently from Fritz Springmeier claiming that Dr. Cameron was an associate of Dr. Josef Mengele and that Mengele had been smuggled out of Europe to work in the USA, continuing his work refining mind control for the CIA. Information from his work has Ewen Cameron and Josef Mengele working together creating mind control operatives.
Now, is the CBC going to deal with these allegations and the testimony in their upcoming documentary? Well, we will see ...
You have been listening to the International Connection on CKLN.

 



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The Canadian Broadcasting Company's

The Fifth Estate TV Show




Ewen Cameron and
The Sleep Room

January 6, 1998

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As I transcribed the tape some words seemed to change their position in sentences, or change into other words. This is due to interference to the tape machine's audio electronics by the high-tech electronics of the "controllers," who obviously have a sound studio complete with actors. They appeared to be minor changes not affecting the meaning of sentences, at least hopefully. - Ed Light

 

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Announcer:

Behind closed doors, human guinea pigs in shocking mind control experiments conducted by our government and the CIA.
Female victim:

I had no identity, I had no memory, I'd never existed in the world before.
Announcer:

The horrors of "the sleep room" -- next on "The Fifth Estate."
...Interlude...
Announcer:

Tonight!
Female victim:

The man whom I had thought cared about what happened to me, didn't give a damn. I was a fly. Just a fly.
Announcer:

Revisiting Canada's infamous "sleep room."
Female victim:

I was -- had to be toilet trained; I was a vegetable.
Announcer:

In the 1960s Dr. Ewen Cameron conducted CIA funded experiments on troubled Canadian patients he was meant to help.
Male victim:

It wasn't treatment for anything. It was out and out guinea pigs for brainwashing experiments.
Announcer:

A Fifth Estate investigation revealed how one Canadian government secretly supported these horrific experiments, and then another blocked the victims' fight for justice.
Male voice:

The Mulrooney government, in effect, stabbed its citizens in the back at every turn.
Announcer:

Linden MacIntyre [spelling?] with the real life victims of "the sleep room," and behind the scenes of a new CBC movie about this nightmare chapter in our history.
...Interlude...
Linden MacIntyre:

Welcome to the Fifth Estate. When Canadians first learned that CIA brainwashing experiments had been carried out on Canadians in Canada, with the knowledge of our government, it was a tremendous shock. As the Fifth Estate was first to report in 1984, the work that Dr. Ewen Cameron oversaw at his Montreal clinic was shocking. Now, the story of Cameron's experiments, and the victims' struggle for justice, have been made into a riveting movie, to be broadcast on CBC Television this Sunday and Monday nights. For the victims of the "sleep room," the horror has never really ended.

Even if you don't know the history of the Allen Memorial Institute in Montreal, it looks like a natural setting for a movie -- a horror movie, maybe.
...women's scream...

But then the truth of what happened to hundreds of psychiatric patients there a long time ago is a horror story.
Male voice:

O.K. So we're on route, guys. Peaceably on.
Linden MacIntyre:

And now, it has become a movie -- a dramatized account of a bleak chapter in the history of Canadian psychiatry, produced by a former Fifth Estate documentary maker, Bernard Zuckerman.

The central character in the movie is a world-renowned psychiatrist at the Allen in the early 60s. His name was Dr. Ewen Cameron.
Male voice:

It's the classic story of good turning to evil in its most simplistic terms. Dr. Cameron started off as someone who is probably one of the most enlightened psychiatrists in the country, but then something happened, and whatever happened, suddenly here is this enlightened doctor, this noble doctor, who begins doing more and more and more bizarre experiments on his patients to the point where he is destroying the minds of hundreds of people.
Male speaker [giving a speech - could be Franklin Roosevelt]:

These are the days, and ours are the occasions.
Linden MacIntyre:

Inspired by the exuberant post-war optimism and technology, Cameron thought he'd achieved a major scientific breakthrough -- how to repair a damaged human mind. The media rejoiced -- even coined a phrase which would become a tragically silly oxymoron: "beneficial brainwashing."

Linda McDonald was a young mother with five children under the age of five, when she started feeling low. Her family doctor knew just the man to make her better.
Linda McDonald:

I was tired, I was depressed, my back was hurting -- and so he said, to the children's father, why don't you go to Montreal and visit this Dr. Ewen Cameron, this famous man, who has all of these accolades, and have an assessment.
So we went. My medical file even says that I took my guitar with me; and that was the end of my life.
Within three weeks Dr. Cameron decided to call me an acute schizophrenic, and shipped me up to the "sleep room."
Linden MacIntyre:

How long did they put you to sleep for?
Linda McDonald:

I was in a coma for 86 days.
Linden MacIntyre:

Eighty-six days of unbroken sleep.
Linda McDonald:

Yeah. Total comatose state.
Linden MacIntyre:

The theory was simple: erase a disturbed mind and start all over again.
One of Dr. Cameron's colleagues at the time was Dr. Peter Roper.
Dr. Peter Roper:

The aim, I think, really, was to wipe out the patterns of thought and behavior which were detrimental to the patient which were sick, and replace them with healthy patterns of thought and behavior. I think this may have been -- uh -- stimulated by the effects of the -- uh -- American troops of the war in Korea, how they seem to have been brainwashed.
Linden MacIntyre:

The movie called "The Sleep Room" dramatizes one technique for brainwashing: extreme sessions of electroshock therapy, massive jolts of electricity three or four times a day for weeks. According to her hospital records, Linda McDonald had one-hundred of these treatments.
She entered hospital for what we can now guess was post-partem depression. Her records show the results of shock and radical drug therapy.
May 15th shows some confusion; June 3rd: "Knows her name, but that's about all." June 11th: "Doesn't know her name."
Linda McDonald:

I was -- had to be toilet trained. I was a vegetable. I had no identity, I had no memory; I had never existed in the world before. Like a baby. Just like a baby that has to be toilet trained.
Linden MacIntyre:

She eventually went home, her depression gone, and her entire previous life gone with it.
Linda McDonald:

This is -- this is one of the twins, in 62 before I went to the Allen, and this is the same one I think. I just look at the pictures and I know that is who they are, but I don't remember them as my children at all. I mean, I know that they came from my body -- um -- but, there's no -- that's all. I don't know, and that's because I was told that. So, these are my children.
Linden MacIntyre:

Robert Loguey [spelling?] was little more than a child himself when he was referred to Dr. Cameron. He was 18, he had a sore leg. His doctor thought it was all in his head, and sent him to the Allen. Like Linda McDonald, he went through a nightmare of shock therapy and drugs, including LSD.
Robert Loguey:

Well, I was given LSD about every second day and -- uh -- injected, and -- uh -- sometimes it was mixed with sodium amethal and other drugs.
Film-maker:

One on one, take two.
Linden MacIntyre:

Most of the drugs were experimental but seemed suitable for brainwashing or, as Cameron preferred to call it, de-patterning.

Then, during the long sleep, the patient would be forced to listen to subliminal messages that were supposed to print new, sometimes bizarre, thoughts on his blank mind.
Robert Loguey:

I was aware of the speaker under my pillow; I was aware of the words.
Linden MacIntyre:

Which were?
Robert Loguey:

"You killed your mother."
Linden MacIntyre:

"You killed your mother."
Robert Loguey:

Yeah.
Linden MacIntyre:

Who was alive and well.
Robert Loguey:

Who was alive and well. And, uh...
Linden MacIntyre:

Over and over again this voice is talking....
Robert Loguey:

Uh, well, like I say, it takes about two seconds to say that message, and this was going on for 23 days, and -- uh -- when I went home, after being there, when I went home my mother was there, and why was she there, and -- it didn't make any sense.
Linden MacIntyre:

So what was going on here? Dr. Ewen Cameron was at one point head of the World Psychiatric Association, and is still admired by some of his former colleagues. Dr. Peter Roper:

What is the possibility that we had a good, well-motivated man whose ego and ambition took charge of his professionalism and led him into some fairly dark places?
Dr. Peter Roper:

Well, I would put that chance as pretty slight. I think it's more likely that -- um -- if he'd been around to defend himself when this story came out, we'd have a perfectly different picture of it.
Linden MacIntyre:

What would he say? Put yourself in his shoes; what would he say?
Dr. Peter Roper:

Uh -- I think he'd say -- uh -- "look, I treated these patients to the best of my ability; I -- uh -- I didn't get all of them well, but most of them I got better than they were.
Movie excerpt, actor:

A travesty. I agree.
Linden MacIntyre:

But in the movie, Dr. Cameron will not come off so well.
Movie excerpt, actor:

They're your patients. Most of these people were discharged as cured.
Linden MacIntyre:

It accurately shows that many of his patients, inaccurately diagnosed as schizophrenics, were permanently damaged by his methods.
Movie excerpt: woman screaming.
Linden MacIntyre:

Eventually even Cameron had doubts about his experiments. He left the Allen in 1964, died of a heart attack three years later. By then, the hospital had quietly abandoned the experiments.
Movie excerpt, actor, angered:

So, these people had nothing. You can't just walk away from this, Cameron! It'll come back and it'll ruin you! You can't walk away!
Linden MacIntyre:

Nobody knows for sure exactly how many people doctor Cameron and his colleagues exposed to the program of chemical and electro-shock treatments they called de-patterning and psychic driving, a process which some experts have since called barbaric.

But many years would pass before there would be any public or official acknowledgment of what those damaged patients had been through. It would take a dramatic disclosure in the late 70s. But the Allen memorial had been part of a cold war program of brainwashing experiments, paid for in part by the CIA. Hidden among its most sensitive files were CIA records documenting a project called MKULTRA.

Between 1957 and 1961 a CIA front funneled about 62,000 dollars US for brainwashing research by Dr. Ewen Cameron.
The American media got the story first, but The Fifth Estate exposed the magnitude of the human tragedy.
Fifth Estate Announcer (historical):

Experimental drugs, including LSD, were administered to human guinea pigs. The patients were never told that their treatment was part of a CIA experiment.
Linden MacIntyre:

One of those patients was Velma Orlikow of Winnepeg. She'd been at the Allen in the late 50s for treatment of depression. She happened to be married to a member of parliament, David Orlikow of the NDP. She'd considered Dr. Cameron a near-saint. Now she was being told she'd been betrayed by him.
Velma Orlikow:

It was an awful feeling to realize, when I found this out, that the man whom I had thought cared about what happened to me didn't give a damn. I was a fly. Just a fly.
Linden MacIntyre:

First she felt hurt. Then she got angry, and decided to sue one of the most powerful institutions in the world, the CIA.
David Orlikow (?):

As a matter of fact, when she said she wanted to sue the CIA I said, "you're crazy, how a couple -- how can an ape[?] from Winnepeg sue the CIA?"
Linden MacIntyre:

But she did, along with eight other former patients -- a massive lawsuit that would consume many years and become an obsession for a distinguished American civil-liberties lawyer named Joseph Rauh.
Joseph Rauh:

Cameron, all he did was what the CIA was in effect asking him to do, and what he said he was going to do, and he did it.
Linden MacIntyre:

Rauh and a young assistant name James Turner knew they were up against a formidable opponent in the CIA, but they thought the odds would be evened a bit by help from a natural ally. They were in for a disappointment.
James Turner:

Well, we expected to have a very potent ally in the form of the Canadian government and, unfortunately, instead of helping their own citizens, because the Canadian government was worried about its possible liability, the Mulrooney government in effect stabbed its citizens in the back at every turn of the litigation.
Linden MacIntyre:

Ottawa actually helped suppress a key piece of information: evidence that CIA officials at the US embassy had actually apologized to the Canadian government when the CIA experiments were first revealed. Jim Turner is still flabbergasted.
James Turner:

You gotta understand how important these apologies and expressions of regret were. This is an admission. This is legally admissible in court because it is one of the parties of the litigation saying, "I did something wrong and I'm sorry I did it." That is prima facie evidence of negligence and of wrong-doing that goes a long, long way to bringing the case to a timely conclusion instead of the protracted ten years of litigation that we had.
Movie excerpt:

And action!

Mr. Mulrooney!
Linden MacIntyre:

The movie underscores the impact of Ottawa's refusal to give the lawyers details of the CIA apology. The lawyers eventually upped the ante. On The Fifth Estate.
Fifth Estate director (historical):

And action.
Announcer:

Tonight on The Fifth Estate, startling revelations about the activities of the CIA in Canada.
Linden MacIntyre:

With a publicity wave gathering momentum, and the strength of the victims' case becoming more apparent, the CIA caved in the day before the trial was to begin. They settled out-of-court for 750,000 dollars. At the time it was the largest settlement the CIA had ever awarded, and it provides a dramatic finale for the movie.
Movie preview, actress:

Because we made them pay. They couldn't beat us! We won. Write that down, mister!
Linden MacIntyre:

Producer Bernard Zuckerman says, besides the financial terms, this was a major moral victory.
Bernard Zuckerman:

Here you've got nine "little" Canadian victims taking on probably the most powerful institution in America, the CIA, and, these "little" Canadians, they win -- they get the CIA to settle and give them money and, in effect, an apology saying, "what we did is wrong."
Linden MacIntyre:

The movie ends with a CIA settlement, but the story didn't end there. Troubling questions would persist, especially about the government of Canada.
So why was Ottawa so ambiguous when it came to helping some Canadian citizens get compensation from Washington for what they endured in a program that was inspired mostly by American Cold War fears?
Well, the answer was simple. The government of Canada was even more deeply involved in the Allen Memorial experiments than the Americans. Dr. Cameron's experiments were funded to the tune of half-a-million dollars by the Federal Department of Health and Welfare during the 50s, and the funding didn't stop then. They kicked in over 51,000 dollars after the CIA project ended in 1961, which was when a young, stressed-out mother named Linda McDonald became part of the Allen Memorial story.
When she discovered that her own government had been funding brainwashing experiments on her, she made a dramatic decision.
[To Linda McDonald] You decided to take on the government of Canada.
Linda McDonald:

Oh, sure. Well, hey, considering what I'd already been through, that was a snap! [Laughs.] You know, what else -- went on?
Linden MacIntyre:

It must have become obvious to you fairly quickly that you were ramming your head into a brick wall.
Linda McDonald:

Yes, yes. I'm stubborn too; it got to the point where every time, whether it was John Crosby or Reina Tishen [spelling?] or then the Honorable Ken Campbell, it got to be -- uh -- "you guys, we're gonna, we're gonna stay alive," and I said that to Brian Mulrooney too, "If you think I'm going away, you've got another thing coming. I'm not going to go away!" [Laughs.] I finally discovered...
Linden MacIntyre:

Linda McDonald would hound the federal government for four years before finally, in 1992, Ottawa grudgingly agreed to compensate her and some of Dr. Cameron's other victims 100,000 dollars each. In exchange, for signing away the right to sue the government or the hospital.
But it was an ambiguous victory. Ottawa refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing at the Allen, a conclusion backed up by a legal review of what happened there. The report, by a prominent progressive conservative lawyer, relied partly on expert advice from Dr. Frederick Grunberg [spelling?], one of Quebec's leading psychiatrists, who made two controversial assertions: the patients hadn't suffered irreparable harm, and that they had consented to the treatment.
Dr. Frederick Grunberg:

Well, when I went to -- uh -- the patient were admitted at -- uh -- the Allen Memorial Institute where patients were went in voluntarily. So, the sort of consent they gave is -- uh -- was sort of general consent to the hospital. So the consent that was given for surgery or any other procedure.
Linda McDonald:

Consent had nothing to do with it. Dr. Cameron did not describe the treatment; he did not clarify; he did not give any way shape or form, any kind of a hint what was going to happen. That's not consent, and, I don't even know whether he talked to me because I'll never remember anyway.
Linden MacIntyre:

Dr. Grunberg shares a widely-held view in his profession about the legacy of Dr. Ewen Cameron.
Dr. Frederick Grunberg:

I think he was a misguided man -- he worked on a sort of a very poor theoretical -- uh -- basis, and I think he was important -- uh -- considering, but I am convinced, still convinced, that -- uh -- he really wanted a therapeutic way through the -- he had this motivation that he was going to break this -- uh -- terrible -- uh -- condition.
Linden MacIntyre:

You seem to be saying, "the things that Cameron did were awful, but he meant well, so we'll forgive him, and the victims, or patients, will have to live with it."
Dr. Frederick Grunberg:

It's not a question of forgiving -- the thing is, we put what he was doing in the perspective of his time, and alot of awful things were going on.
Linden MacIntyre:

Alot of people are saying, considering the accepted practice and the science available at the time, this was an appropriate thing to do to you. What...
Robert Loguey[?]:

It wasn't treatment -- uh -- if that's what you're suggesting, it wasn't treatment for anything; not a toenail, or anything. It was out and out guinea pigs for brainwashing experiments. That's what it was.
Linden MacIntyre:

It's been more than 33 years since the Allen put an end to the practices initiated by its most notorious doctor. In has recovered its world-class reputation as a leader in the treatment of mental illness.
Dr. Peter Roper was dismissed from the Allen two years after Dr. Cameron left. One of the reasons: he insisted on following Dr. Cameron's technique.
Review how you strenuously -- to continue the de-patterning of your patients.
Dr. Peter Roper:

Well, I felt that I had a duty to my patients to give them the best possible treatment, and if there were some who were not responding to any other form of treatment the only thing left was de-patterning for them, then I felt that should be done.
Linden MacIntyre:

You sound -- you sound almost nostalgic for the 50s and 60s.
Dr. Peter Roper:

Oh no, it's not nostalgia; it's the question, I think, that bothers alot of doctors that it's rather sad if they're prevented from having that treatment because of adherence to political or other reasons which have nothing to do with good medical practice.
Linden MacIntyre:

For Linda McDonald, good medical practice in 1963 turned an emotional crisis into a horror that would haunt a lifetime.
[Sound of a gathering.]
Female voice:

Here we are.
Linda McDonald:

It feels strange.
Linden MacIntyre:

This spring she returned to the Ottawa high school where she graduated in 1957.
Anne Highland:

Hi, Linda. I'm Anne Argue[?] Highland. How are you?
Linda McDonald:

Oh! Well, hi.
Anne Highland:

I was in the liars club; I don't know if you remember.
Linda McDonald:

I don't remember at all!
Anne Highland:

Oh, well that's normal.
Linda McDonald:

And all of these people -- we knew all of these people.
Linden MacIntyre:

She has no memory of this place, or those times, or even of who she was back then.
Linda McDonald:

Oh, here I am. Look at me! You did call me Lindy?

[Back to interview.]

I am who I am today. My family tells me that I am very much like the Linda that they knew when I was growing up: gregarious, always talking, laughing, singing, happy, positive person. I have no memory of that person; all I'm grateful for is that Cameron might have been able to wipe a memory but he couldn't wipe a spirit.
Announcer:

The Fifth Estate will return in a moment...
[End of Cameron segment.]
 

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